The following commentary is written by Tracy, an adoptive parent of two children.
I was a PLAN family, I try not to say that very often because 1) I don’t think it’s relevant to most of what I post and 2) in many peoples eyes it automatically discredits anything I am about to say. I am not one of the families that rabidly supported the agency at all costs, in fact I am one of the few that spoke about my experience with the agency on my own site. My self worth is not tied up in what agency I used and I have absolutely no guilt about the decisions I made when choosing my agency. I was not an inexperienced PAP when I chose this agency and contrary to what many people believe I did research them. What is difficult for me, yes personally, is to see posts over and over about how unethical they are from people who have not completed one international adoption-let alone used the agency and most often than not they are questioning our (as PLAN families) ethics or morals as well. Things have really heated up since the NOIDs were issued and as a PLAN family or a former PLAN family it is hard not to take what people say personally since it is directed as much (or more) at the AP/PAPs as at the agency. How many people have read over and over how people who use these “unethical agencies” are contributing to the corruption, aren’t researching the agencies, don’t care about ethics, are selfish and only care about how fast and young they can get a child, are jeopardizing the future of Vietnam adoptions for everyone or most recently because people have continued to use PLAN (or the other “unethical” agencies) it has caused other peoples babies (i.e., those that were smart enough to research their agencies and who cared about the ethics of their adoption) to have to spend an extra 2 or more months in an orphanage…all because of PLAN families selfishness. All of that (and you read it over and over on blog after blog) is hard NOT to take personal.
What many many many people are implying is that PLAN (and the others, I am only using PLAN because #1 I used them and #2 their name is the one out there most these days) is so unethical and they have been all along, the writing was on the wall and if you wanted to find it you could have. Like many people have pointed out, the adoption world 1 or 1.5 years ago was different than it is now, but there were still rumors about this agency. I heard them, I read them, I researched the agency and yes, I did still use them. Like many people, when I am spending $30,000 for an adoption I am going to do my own research as I am sure most people have also done who are using these agencies. I asked the agency a list of about 30 questions (facilitator questions, NOIDs, etc) and there were no red flags in their answers. I contacted the US Embassy 2 times, once about agencies in general and the second time specifically about PLAN and Cherie Clark (back in May-Nov 06 the rumored reasons the agency was so bad was because of Cherie, the referrals were fast, but a lot of agencies also had fast referrals back then). The Embassy did write me back and they did not say anything (did not even hint at anything) that would cause me not to use this agency. They claimed they did not know who Cherie Clark was, but that they had checked with the Hanoi office of PLAN and were told she did not facilitate adoptions and therefore they had no problems with her -I am saying what the EMBASSY told me, I know there is debate about this point. I still was not sure, I had been reading and making lists and I didn’t know which way to go, so I called the Department of Human Services (I will admit I may have called a different agency, but it was along these same lines-it has been over a year ago now) who oversees their license. I was actually laughed at for questioning this agency. The woman was very helpful and told me how many complaints they had against them (3), if they were resolved or not (all we re resolved), that they had had one lawsuit (which they had won). etc. She said they had a very good reputation in Oregon and had been in business almost 30 years.
So, as a PAP who is about to spend $30,000 on an adoption who do I listen to? The US Embassy and the government office that reviews their license, or people on a web site who have never used the agency? I am not saying all of this to defend the agency, I am not privileged to any information regarding this agency, all I have is my own personal experience with them and based on that I can not brand them unethical. So many people who are on the bash PLAN bandwagon forget that up until about 1 week ago, PLAN did not have any NOIDs. All they had were very fast referrals-which I do agree for todays standards this is a red flag.
We had our dossier complete other than our last home study report when we signed with PLAN in Nov 2006. I said I would not accept a referral until after I had my 171H in hand (at this time they were giving out referrals to just about anyone no matter what stage of the process they were in. Although this was not the norm, they were not the only agency that was able to do this a year ago..but I do admit it was unusual). I signed with them at the beginning of November and received my referral of a 5 month old baby boy on December 27th. Everyone in my travel group had babies that were 4-5 months old at referral time. We traveled April 7th (more than 3 months after referral) and our G&R was April 9, 2007. The reason I am pointing this out is we were never offered a baby that was 6 weeks old, we did not travel immediately (in fact waiting 3.5 months seemed like a long time back then to travel). Again, I don’t know what the agency is doing now, my point is tha t when you brand all PLAN families as irresponsible and selfish it stings.
Like it or not, I am a PLAN family and my child is a PLAN baby. I researched the agency and did not find them lacking. The things that are being said now are said in a very personal tone. They are not directed solely at the agency, so that is why people are taking this personal. I can not even imagine how current or recent families must be feeling right now. I used the agency, spoke out about my experience and have not been a supporter of the agency. So if I am feeling the sting of what people are saying how must other people be feeling?
The point of this article is not to defend the agency. It is to point out why this is such a personal issue for so many people. We all want to complete our families and are trying to do that in the best way we know how. Please remember when you are writing about how horrible PLAN (or any of the other agencies) is, when you are criticizing people for using this agency even in the face of all the evidence that the only concrete thing that has come out against the agency are the NOIDs and those just surfaced. Most people that have used this agency or others like it did it prior to any of this. Lets not do the US Embassy’s job for them, they are responsible for overseeing the legality and ethics of these adoptions. I doubt many people would sign with the agency at this point even if they were open, so lets stop all the name calling and finger pointing and let those entities with the true knowledge regarding these agencies brand them ethical or not. To truly stop the unethical practi ces, that most likely are going on in Vietnam at this time, we need to unite as a group. The way this current discussion is being held is doing nothing but splintering us, which is the worst possible thing that could happen. It is forcing people to shut their eyes and put their hands over their ears and not hear what is being said, people tend to do that when their own ethics or morals are being questioned.
The word is now out, anyone who currently does not know which agencies are deemed “bad” at this point never will know or care because they just don’t want to. Lets stop going down the path of blame and right/wrong and start over fresh. From here on out lets help people learn what to look for in an agency. Hopefully the entire program isn’t going to collapse in on itself and shut down. Hopefully the country will be open for many many more years.
Let’s approach this from here on out not as a blame game, but as a learning experience for the hopefully hundreds of families that either have not chosen their agency yet or will need an agency in the future. From the looks of it, the agencies are on the radar of the US Embassy (right or wrong, it’s not my place to place blame, but I do think that’s a fact at this point) there is no reason at this point to place ourselves on different sides of the street. Let’s assume from this point on that EVERYONE wants the same thing-a legal ethical adoption. At this stage of the game if someone’s mind was going to be changed about their agency it either is or is not. Some people will continue with their adoptions with these agencies and some will change agencies. Lets start fresh and POSITIVE from this point on, no more name calling or finger pointing allowed 🙂
Tracy
AP to 2 (China and Vietnam)
51 Responses
Tracy,
I just want to say that I have never thought that because you (or anyone else) used PLAN it discredits what you have to say. I think your last 2 paragraphs were great, and I completely agree.
Tracy~
you are my hero. You said precisely what I havebeen feeling the last month. The smear campaigns on the web againts the “bad” agencies, one of which, I am a client, (World Child! *gasp!* THE HORROR!!) have made me so angry and depressed. I too, feel personally attacked at every mention of how awful my agency must be. I too, researched on my own, and took referrals from people who had used them already, now these same people are now publicly bashing the agency. That makes me feel terrible. It also makes me feel like everyone who seems to “know” so much more than I do, is calling me stupid. I DID reasearch. I made phone calls, LOTS of phone calls before I chose them. Sadly, a month after I signed and sent my dossier to VN, the crapola hit the fan. Now I am labeled “unethical”. Yes, I chose them because theu have quicker referrals than most..I switched from China, I wasn’t going to get in another 2 year line. Sorry. WC works in more provinces than any other agency, thus, it seemed to me to make sense they might have more children to refer.
Thanks again Tracy, and VVAI for posting this personal view. I bet a lot of readers will identify with what you have to say, and will feel better to know they arent alone in their feelings.
Tracy – I agree with S. 100%. I, for one, am glad you spoke out how and when you did. I also agree that the last 2 paragraphs were great.
This is exactly what I have been trying to get across through my little bits of posts here and there. Honestly, I had some issues, similar to yours with PLAN (paperwork stuff). But felt very strongly that our adoption was quite ethical with regard to my children and the process we went through and that I never once felt uncomfortable with my twins adoption.
I researched. I called around. I asked questions. I read the groups. Nothing came back as being a huge red flag. And there was contradictory info all over. And we, like you, did not get a referral right away, and we were paper ready. We didn’t travel for 2.5 months. But we did get alot of support in country as there were only 3 in our group.
I think that no matter what your child and mine are PLAN babies as you say. You don’t have to support them but my girls are here with us due to their services. And the bashing just makes me want to disconnect myself from the entire community.
Maybe this comment is a little too yeay PLAN that is not my intent. it is just to say that it is personal. It makes me defensive. It makes me feel very protective of my girls and angry that people just started spewing nasty or encouraging it or doing it on purpose…or questioning our morals/values or intelligence. That is what I object to and if you read the comments or the posts over the past week…that is what they seem to do, and that is offensive to me.
Tracy-
I think your post was very much needed. It is a step in the right direction to heal alot of wounds and bring back together the adoption community. I think we, as a whole, can do alot more working together than we can divided and angry.
Tracy –
THANK YOU!!! Thank you for standing up and being so honest. Reading your post was like a breath of fresh air. I loved ALL the paragraphs and I am so thankful for your honesty and courage!
I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all the wonderful comments on this thread. This really does give me hope that we can move past the last few weeks and be a supportive community in the future!
Tracy
Great post, I have very much seen and felt the very thing you are talking about. The recent tone has gotten personal and while I try to stay out of it as I know it is not the intent of most to hurt me personally or my family it is hard to see it over and over. When you start seeing and hearing “well, they used agency X so that shows what their thoughts are worth” or when people type regarding your adoption “twins” instead of twins…that is when it does start getting personal and I think you are right on for calling it out Tracy.
I’ve had to choose what blogs/boards I read carefully and I have to wonder if people really think that their hatefull comments, lies, and name calling really accomplish anything? Add to it the fact that this is all written, there are no physical cues (vocal tone, facial expression, hand gestures etc.) to pick up on so far as sarcasm or the likes and it becomes very easy to misunderstand someone’s humor for criticizm (or worse) and it becomes difficult to see fact from opinion, sarcasm is read for serious and so on.
In the end, is this a community I can stay involved in if all this continues on as before? Likely not, I am a big beliver in input/output and I refuse to let my life to start reflecting the attitudes that I have seen surface over the last couple of months. I’m glad to see a post like this and the comments supporting it, and I do mean your entire post. Don’t you sometimes feel like Timothy the mouse in Dumbo looking on at all the big elephants hearing “girls, GIRLS, do I have a trunkfull for you!”
To continue the topic past where you brought it just a bit: Where does this leave our children? Will we show up at a heritage camp one day to whispers of “those were the twins adopted through agency X and I heard they were in country for 4 whole weeks, well my little Suzie was adopted the same month and we were in and out in 16 days” or “they used agency X so its hard telling where their child came from”? How does all this negativity affect our children? Will our children have access to all of this, is it worth them seeing us at our worst? If we do not stop all the ugliness for ourselves, lets at least stop it for our children’s sake. Much more can be accomplished if we are to be civil and then there is nothing to be ashamed of in the future.
Tracy & all,
Like others, I’m glad you posted this perspective. However, I don’t agree with all of what’s written, including the continued comments about “fast referrals.” I think some terminology needs to be clarified. First of all, there is a difference between a “fast referral” and referral of an infant under age two months. Referral time is time from a family’s DTV to the referral. I think everyone can pretty much agree on that. But I don’t think anyone in a position of authority and knowledge has defined in a legal way what “fast referral” means. I also don’t think anyone in a position of authority and knowledge has explained why a “fast referral” is a sign of unethical behavior. We all know what the timeframe for completing a baby dossier is, and it can certainly be done in 60 days, especially if a baby was reliquished and especially by VN orphanages that are well-versed in doing this documentation (and many are). And some documentation is done in advance. So certainly it’s perfectly legal to refer babies at two months, three months and older (other adoption Websites have also explained how this can legally occur). What about referral times? How many months from DTV to referral constitutes a “fast referral?” Is it 1 month? Two months? Three months? Four, five, six? What is it? People are throwing that phrase around as if it’s been defined by the Embassy or DIA, and to my knowledge, it has not been. It’s clearly legal to be able to offer a family a referral within two months of them being DTV. In fact, if a baby’s dossier is done or in process, a perfectly legal referral could occur even earlier. At least two people who have posted comments about your post and who have been very outspoken against agencies that are able to offer so-called “fast referrals” have themselves gotten “fast referrals.” One got a referral in under two months from DTV. And one was in three months (that was just this fall). Aren’t those fast referrals? The one whose referral was in 2 months traveled three months later. Her baby was less than three months old at referral and came from Phu Tho, which we all know is now a focus of Embassy scrutiny. And yet a third blogger who has been extremely vocal on this topic has this timeline: dossier to agency Sept. 15, 2005, referral of three-month-old baby boy Oct. 24, 2006 and traveled in early Dec. 2006 to pick him up. That’s a pretty fast referral, right? One month? This information is on their blogs, so I’m not revealing private information. I’m also not pointing this out in order to condemn them, but rather to show how silly all of this is. This focus on “fast referrals” makes no sense. And why are people who received fast referrals decrying it so loudly? As Tracy says, all of this finger pointing serves no purpose, especially when the whole issue is so grey.
Thank you Tracy! I am a current PLAN family and it’s so refreshing to have someone whose BTDT speak out. I’ve never posted my agency’s name on my blog, as I felt it was just a little too much information to be on the web. If people asked, I was more than happy to share that information with them via private email or the designated yahoo group (as that is what I was comfortable with).
In the past week, I’ve written a few posts on my blog about my impressions of the online civil war. I was heartbroken to see the way perfect strangers were attacking eachother. People who would otherwise be great friends with an amazing common bond were now attacking eachother because they chose a different adoption agency. I was appalled to see what hurtful things normal everyday people (especially mothers and soon-to-be-mothers) would say in an effort to hurt another person. Isn’t this what we teach our children NOT to do? I understand we are all SO emotionally tied to our adoptions, but a big line was crossed and things went way too far.
I had to laugh when I read through the comments posted on my blog. A few of the more vocal people, who posted some of the most hurtful comments online (who had no idea what agency I was with) posted some of the nicest comments. Isn’t that interesting…when the agency wasn’t an issue, we were all fighting for the same thing. If I’d posted that I was a PLAN family, I doubt the comments would have been so thoughtful. Clearly, we are all fighting for the same things…why can’t we put our differences aside and move on…together?
Again, I thank you for this post. Whether you openly support or recommend PLAN or not isn’t the issue. The issue is that a well established community fell apart in a matter of hours and in a time that it needed to be stronger than ever. We all need to work together to ensure the future of the VN adoption program and our children!
Oops — sorry fo rmy typo. It should state this timeline: “And yet a third blogger who has been extremely vocal on this topic has this timeline: dossier to agency Sept. 15, 2006, referral of three-month-old baby boy Oct. 24, 2006 and traveled in early Dec. 2006 to pick him up.”
Jennifer – many people have come before you and learned through direct experience that which you have not yet learned. This is not a slam but a reality. Many who are such vocal proponents for ethical adoptions are so because there was so little information available when they were trying to make their own agency decisions. This is not my story but the stories of many people I know. I am grateful for those like Tracy and others who speak out their own truth, from their own experience, so that others can learn. This is the best gift we can give back to the adoptive community.
I feel that your questions, while all good questions, have been answered repeatedly in various ways by various people. I’d be happy to further answer questions you might have about concerning timelines privately. Just drop me an email.
Tracy — Thank you so much for your commentary. Foul talk that is not substantiated is nothing more than gossip. PLAN has taken a hit from a rumor filled public.
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Nicki, this is an open dialogue and that’s how I prefer it since the topic of fast referrals is of such hot interest to everyone — not privately emailed. Are you saying that the people I mentioned who had those fast referrals of very young babies had unethical adoptions? Because people who have fast referrals today of very young babies are being labeled unethical now.
For the record, yes, I got my referral 3 months from DTV just this fall. Ours will be the first adoption completed by Americans in this province since the shutdown. I wouldn’t expect the same timeline for families further behind me in line with the same agency. Obviously there would currently be babies available for adoption in the orphanages given the circumstances. Similar to those who traveled in the late fall of 2006 and earlier.
Thank you Tracy. We are a PLAN family as well. I worked very hard at choosing an agency, did A LOT of research, and asked a lot of questions before we choose PLAN, a lot of tough questions. You expressed so much of what I have been feeling lately. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts “on paper”.
My baby was seven months old at the time of referral. I would say that is not “very young” in this context. I would also say that the concerns voiced by many are based on patterns, not individual circumstances.
Jennifer G – What I’m saying is that this line of questioning is not relevant to the post from which you are commenting. I think this line of commenting takes away from Tracy’s message at a time with the adoption community greatly needs to hear it.
Nicki,
You are absolutely right. I needed that reminder.
For the record, my frustration is (and always has been) with adopters who see corruption, acknowledge there are red flags, but blithely continue on as though they did not experience first-hand something that was clearly concerning – often times praying or praising God for the speed with which their case was pushed through. I do not blame AP’s who did their homework and yet ended up with agencies that are now having considerable problems in-country… I blame the agencies. However, I still think there are “signs” that should be of concern and should be reason to give your agency a second look if you are still in process. And yes, speed is one of those “signs” … obviously there is no set amount of time, it’s a matter of being widely outside the average or norm. While in the first few months after adoptions resumed or in the first months of a new program (or new province) agencies can give relatively speedy referrals, that is not the current norm – and we all know it. So let’s stop picking on each other as Tracy suggested, okay Jennifer? Instead let’s focus on helping one another – supporting each other and being open to hearing concerns that others may have for the good of the VN program. Because as Jenn says, there will come a day when our children are at a FCV picnic or some such thing and they will hear whisperings about their agency or facilitator or even just the climate of adoptions at the time they were adopted – and every parent will want to be able to look their child straight in the eye and honestly say “I know without a doubt you came to me ethically.” Sadly, there are parents who won’t be able to say that… through perhaps no fault of their own, perhaps completely unbeknownst to them. But is it doing anyone a favor to deny that reality? Will that help the PAP’s who come after them?
Our Cambodian adoption was not the ideal ethical process I thought and hoped it would be. And I will tell my daughter what I know and what I don’t know… but I will also told her that I did everything in my power to change the system, to speak up for her and all the kids who came after her.
Thanks, Tracy. I agree that the level of conversation on VN adoption blogs lately has been embarassing. And I agree with you that “it is personal.” And it’s personal for all of us, not just those of you with children home from agencies now under suspicion. I can’t imagine how hard that must be now. And I, too, worry about how this new reality will affect those children when they are adults.
However, I still don’t understand (and I’m waiting for someone to explain it to me) why someone, like you, who had enough concerns about PLAN to contact all those government agencies and had heard the rumors–and who, as you say, was spending $30,000 for your adoption–would not instead choose one of the other licensed agencies at that time who did not have those rumors, questions, etc.? It’s not like PLAN was the only agency. Why take that risk?
I had the same concerns, and chose not to go with PLAN. I don’t have a child now and I’m beginning to wonder if I ever will. I don’t blame you, Tracy, or any other PLAN family, or PLAN. But please don’t forget that it’s personal for people like me too.
Heidi,
Every agency out there has some person that is not happy that is eagerly waiting to spread negative things about it. Every agency that I researched and asked for opinions about online had some person that responded negatively.
Whether you hear rumors or not, any person with common sense is going to research their agency by any means possible. Using the government offices is the same thing as contacting the better business bureau. It is there, you need to use it. I am a PLAN PAP, and I love them. I was with another agency that I researched and found nothing bad about, but it ended up not being the right agency for me, so I switched. PLAN has been great. It was the best choice I could have made.
VNadopter –
I disagree. While I can not know what happened within the Vietnamese offices, I DO know the circumstances of my son’s relinquishment and the efforts my agency (Holt) made to be absolutely certain that international adoption was the best option. And I know that my agency is adament that they will never pay any “unpublished fee” nor engage in anything that might even hint as impropriety. And in fact when asked the State Dept or the foreign embassies will respond that Holt embodies the *ideal* child welfare/adoption process. So IMHO, I CAN say he came to me ethically. I am NOT pointing fingers at anyone and I am not attacking or harrassing anyone… I am holding ALL of us accountible for the choices we as an adoptive community make. I’m wondering why anyone would have a problem with that?
Christina and everyone,
I’m afraid to say that no one adopting internationally would be able to “honestly say ‘I know without a doubt you came to me ethically.’ Not 100%, not now, not ever. There is just too much room for corruption in every country where international adoption occurs. Of course we must, and have done, as much research as possible to ensure as best we can that nothing unethical is occurring. But there is simply no way to know for sure.
And that’s what makes all of this finger pointing so pointless and hurtful. Anyone with the sense that THEIR adoption is perfectly ethical is as deluded as the person who turns a blind eye to the facts that ARE known.
It is a risky endeavor, and those of us in it need to be prepared, or start preparing ourselves, for the inevitabilities of those risks.
It’s not like Angelina Jolie and Madonna haven’t been all over the news stirring up controversy over adoption ethics. We are all as guilty/innocent as each other — for better of for worse. So please stop harassing each other.
Christina, we are almost saying the same thing, except that, as you point out you “can not know what happened within the Vietnamese offices.” So therefore I don’t see how you’d be able to be in a different category that allows you to say that, and force another couple to feel that this quote applied to them: “Sadly, there are parents who won’t be able to say that… through perhaps no fault of their own, perhaps completely unbeknownst to them.”
And I’m bowing out of the conversation now, because I feel like I’m now doing exactly the same thing I said we should stop.
I have to agree with the last post #25 (VNadopter). It’s incredible to me that any of us claims to have complete knowledge that everything was done ethically. It’s very sweet and innocent and yes so politically correct but frankly I doubt that any country (even ours) is clean. So let’s all try to do our best to pick the best agencies, try to keep the cleanest practices, but stop trying to parade ourselves as above anyone else or our children are better because they came from XYZ agency. Is childish and a waste of good effort.
Okay, last comment and then I am definitely walking away because this is not where this thread should be going. First, yes, I agree, none of us can say that the entire process is perfectly ethical – in fact probably no where on earth is any process entirely ethical. However, and I realize this now sounds like splitting hairs (or perhaps trying to dissect what the meaning of the word “Is” is?!) but what I said was that I know my son came to me ethically – meaning I know that my agency went above and beyond the requirements to ensure that his best interests were protected and no one was exploited or bribed in order to get him to me faster. And honestly, I think that’s the best any of us can hope for, in VN adoptions or anywhere. I honestly am not trying to parade myself as better and in fact avoided naming my agency for a long time but the truth is I believe some agencies ARE better than others and I think it’s equally helpful to name the very good agencies as to focus on the ones of some concern.
I never meant to jump in this thread and put myself up as Better than Thou or anything like that so forgive me please if it somehow came off that way. My main point was (and always has been for the last 5 years) that we all need to work together for the best possible practices and processes for the good of all our children. So thank you to Tracy for reminding us that we are all in this together and we all care very much about this issue. 🙂
Jenny G. –
I don’t know how many times I have to scream it from the rooftops, but you can use our adoption as a model of “fast.” You can use the agency we went through as a model of “unethical!” I have NEVER claimed otherwise. In fact, I have been VERY vocal in agreeing with exactly what you said, that’s why I got a kick out of you using my son’s adoption to support your point – you did exactly the opposite. Oh, and just one more small point…things were different when the program re-opened. Of course things were faster all around, even for the ethical agencies. That is because it was before China changed requirements and people changed countries, before Angelina adopted from VN, and for many other reasons, before it became the extremely popular program it now is. There were fewer families in line waiting for babies at that time. Still, there were unethical practices and unethical agencies. But to deny that was a different time is just ignoring the facts. And I do believe you’re beating a dead horse – these are all things that have been discussed and points that have been rebuttled over and over.
Anyway, Tracy, this was a really really good post. I do understand where you are coming from. As I have also said, I do understand why families take it personally. But I think a big part of that is because you label yourselves as “PLAN families” and your children as “PLAN babies.” I would NEVER, in a million years, label myself an “FHSA family,” or my son an “FHSA baby.” We are a family who used FHSA to adopt our first baby. That is all. They do not define us, nor would I ever let them. That is my only disagreement with how you approach the issue.
PLAN has been lumped in with the agency we used because they both have had someone funky working for them, and they both turn up faster referrals. With that said, I was very impressed that PLAN sent legal reinforcement over to Vietnam quickly and seem to have supported their clients (from what I can read) as they received these NOIDs. So, perhaps PLAN deserves more credit here (honestly, I didn’t even know of the agency until I started reading about it this month).
I have been critical of our agency, and feel really weird about people who continue to use it, despite a billion red flags waving in the air. They have asked many of us to lie to INS about referral dates, they have threatened some with legal action if we spoke out, they have asked people to pull things off blogs, and they continue to employ someone who was booted out of Vietnam for buying babies at the last shut down.
There is a lot to think of here. I am hoping we make a better choice on agencies next round.
Sorry I am coming in so late here-
I really hear what Tracy is saying, and am so glad that she chose to share on this site.
Barbara-
I am really struggling with your comment, perhaps I am not understanding you correctly- I feel like what you are saying is that all adoptions are unethical, that is just the way it is and we should just accept that?
Please clarify, if you don’t mind?
I agree that on some level there is corruption in every adoption. It is corrupt that single women have to chose between keeping their job and having a child. It is corrupt that Vietnam is in the clutches of quasi-communism that stifles its people instead of caring for them. It is corrupt that America scattered the Vietnames countryside with land mines that are still going off, killing people and making sustainable farming very difficult and significantly contributing to the state of poverty that most Vietnamese people live their daily lives in. All of this corruption contributed to the fact that my son’s first mother chose to give him up, so if that is what you are talking about, I agree there is corruption in every counrty’s adoptions, and our country is probably the worst.
But I agree with Chris, there are agencies out there that do everything-EVERYTHING within their power to ensure that an adoption is ethical and moral.
Hi Tracy,
I am very new to this whole blog world but recently started reading just trying to gain some perspective. We were one of the last families PLAN accepted before closing applications to Vietnam a few weeks ago. We are trying to make our decisions carefully and informed, but there is so much to consider and difficult to decipher the “real” story. I would greatly appreciate anything else you have to share with us to help our thinking in this process. Thank you!
I wanted to say that I don’t want this thread to be a war about anything I said. I only answered Jen V’s question because I think she is honestly struggling with her decision and I think we need to be supportive of PAPs at this time. So I will be more than willing to discuss anything I said (on either side) in private e-mail (tracyintn@comcast.net). I can not brand an agency unethical because I do not have access to the information that would support such a claim (I only have what people write on blogs, APV/AAR and my own personal experience and for ME that is not enough to make such a strong statement).
Tracy
Jen V,
I am probably going to be blasted from all directions here, but this is what I think (keep in mind this is only my opinion and I am not privy to any inside information on ANY adoption agency). I personally do not think PLAN is unethical, I have my own views on why they have so many referrals. But if you read my site you will see I was not a fan of the agency after our travel experience, my views on all of that have mellowed with time, but my experience still was not a positive one. From a purely selfish standpoint as a PAP, if I were chosing agencies now (remember things have really changed in the 6 months since we completed our adoption), I would not choose PLAN or any of the other agencies that have gotten NOIDs. I personally don’t think a NOID automatically makes an agency bad (and I give a lot of credit to PLAN for seemingling supporting their families in country), but right or wrong the US Embassy seems to not like a few agencies. Why get messed up in all of this if you don’t have to? I personally don’t think it’s worth it. You are spending A LOT of money for this adoption and why risk it not going through? You do not want to be in the same position those other poor families are in right now stuck over there with a baby they have fallen in love with and may not be able to bring home.
I am all for ethics in adoption, I agree the children come first. But if what is being said now was being said back when I was chosing an agency I would personally play it safe. PLAN didn’t have NOIDs when I was chosing an agency and everyone had fast referrals for the most part. THe only thing people could come up with about the agency was the Cherie Clark thing which I personally did not have a problem with (they were very honest that she was helping with the families). I don’t think PLAN is a bad agency and nor do I think it’s an unethical one (but I think I also have different values I am placing on what makes an agency unethical-to me that is a very strong word). You aren’t really into this process yet, you don’t have a lot invested with the agency. I would hate to see you and your family be punished by the fall out that is going on right now. There are my 2 cents on the subject. Good luck in whichever way you decide to go. It was a horrible trying to chose an agency over a year ago, I can not even imagine what families are having to go through now.
Tracy
Tracy thank you for having the guts to voice your opinion.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am sickened by the way AP/PAPS are behaving. Guys this is not high school, Stop acting like it. This is not about my agency is better then your agency.This is about the children. The ophans of Vietnam that need stable loving homes. I thought in the beginning we all had that common goal to love and support these children. I felt I was dealing with a different caliber of people in the adoption community. A loving, caring, compassionate, supportive group of people. I am not so sure anymore. It is not our job as AP/PAPS to decide who’s adoptions are ethical or unethical. It is USCIS job. Let them do their job and lets all get back to supporting each other as a commmunity. For good or bad we should all have a mutual goal of the children. Please remember WHY you started this journey.
Good advice to Jen, Tracy.
Just curious…when people refer to “fast referrals” there is never ANY mention about the number of provinces/orphanages the agency works with. Wouldn’t it be logical that referrals would come faster if the agency was working with more orphanges? I haven’t scouted out agencies for a while but it seems likely that those who have shorter waiting lists and/or more orphanages would be providing referrals faster. Just a thought.
I have a question for those that have commented that they are sure, or as sure as one can be, that their adoption was ethical and in the best interest of their child. The first part of this question is whether the birthparents were identified? If so, did you ever consider that a gift to those parents of the total amount of your adoption costs might have allowed them to keep their child and give him or her a very good life. Twenty to thirty thousand dollars would go a very long way in Vietnam. Obviously, I do not know the reasons your children were eligible to be adopted, but this is just something I wonder about a lot.
I am not trying to make any kind of point. It is just that I honestly struggle with this question in my own mind. If I truly have a child’s best interest at heart then why don’t I just support the birth parents rather than adopt the child. I realize that there may not be any realistic mechanism in place to put such a plan into action, but still it seems to be a question worth asking.
I have a question for those that have commented that they are sure, or as sure as one can be, that their adoption was ethical and in the best interest of their child. The first part of this question is whether the birthparents were identified? If so, did you ever consider that a gift to those parents of the total amount of your adoption costs might have allowed them to keep their child and give him or her a very good life. Twenty to thirty thousand dollars would go a very long way in Vietnam. Obviously, I do not know the reasons your children were eligible to be adopted, but this is just something I wonder about a lot.
I am not trying to make any kind of point. It is just that I honestly struggle with this question in my own mind. This was not an issue when I considered adopting from China, but I think it is in Vietnam. If I truly have a child’s best interest at heart then why don’t I just support the birth parents rather than adopt the child. I realize that there may not be any realistic mechanism in place to put such a plan into action, but still it seems to be a question worth asking.
Since many people in this community are advocating ethics at any and all costs to adoptive parents and seem absolutely certain that they have done the right thing by their children, I thought maybe you could tell me how you have reconciled this question.
Lori-
This is a VERY good question and one that I wrestle with quite a bit. I recently heard of a(domestic) prospective adoptive family that did just that- instead of adopting they paid for day care for the child they thought they were going to raise and helped his mother through school. That is the kind of thing that would really put an end to all of this stuff, huh(in a very good way).
Lori, good question. Holt has a program for birth moms, caring for them during pregnancy, counseling them before and after birth (including seeking out extended family to help support the child), and offering assistance to help them parent. We have information about the specifics of our son’s case that I won’t share because it’s his alone, but suffice to say we know that money was not the only issue. Also, our entire VN fee was only around $10,000 … and that money is used for Holt VN staff (they have 3 or more offices staffed with at least 4 people each, including Social Workers who visit all the kids in Holt care at least once every 3 months), translation fees, orphanage support… I’m sure the list goes on. In other words, no one is being handed a big wad of bills in exchange for a child.
To get to the spirit of your question though, I think it is important to consider what could be done, financially speaking, to help families stay intact. In Cambodia we sponsor 2 children with World Vision and it makes me feel good to know that money is enabling those children to stay in their families and receive good food and educations. (sadly even with that support however, one of first sponsor kids, a girl, left the program at 13 to go find work in the city. I think money can only go so far, social expectations and attitudes in the villages have to change as well).
Lori,
This is so hard for me to post to since everytime I write it I feel like I am sounding cold and uncaring. I would never want to adopt a child that was taken from it’s parents or bought (although I don’t support this practice in any way because I think it exploits the birth parents living conditions, if the parent were giving up the child anyway and money was not an issue I would not have a problem with them getting some kind of money. Not as an incentive, but much along the lines that you said, a few even hundred dollars could make a world of difference for one of these families (and is a drop in the bucket compared to what we paid) and if it meant their lives were improved and they did not have to make the decision to place or abandon another child up for adoption I would support that). But I came to IA to build MY family, if my only desire were to keep children and birthparents together I could do that in many many ways through different organizations-it would even be needed here in the United States. We have always felt our children needed homes and we needed them, so it was a win-win situation. We have never felt like they were the lucky ones to be adopted, we have been blessed that both China and Vietnam have opened up their country to allow us to adopt their children. I am not one of those people that feel adoption is the last best option for children. I feel (in all countries) if a parent does not want to or is not able to parent a child (for economic/emotional/social etc) reasons that that child may be better off in a home that can better provide for them. I do NOT feel like just because we have more money in America we can do a better job or we are entitled to their children, but as a mother, if I knew my child was going to not have enough to eat, not have access to health care or not have a safe warm dry to place to sleep at night, I would want more for them and for many people (IMO) think they are giving their child a gift by giving them up for adoption. I wish the agencies would funnel more money into the local economies so people did not have to make these decisions, it’s a horrible thing for a parent to have to do. But what is an even worse tragedy (IMO) is a child that has to grow up in an orphanage without a family if they could be adopted into a loving home (in their own country or ours).
I know that isn’t what many many people on this board feel and I don’t think we are entitled to any countries children just because they are poor, but I also think most people are turning to adoption to fill a place in their family that supporting a birth parent/child relationship will not fill.
Tracy
I agree with Tracy on the above comment. I don’t think it sounds cold or uncaring. While I do not want to adopt a child who has been bought, or whose parents have been coerced or misled about what is or will happen to their child, the fact is that we DO want to adopt a child. We just really want to adopt a child who actually needs a family. And while I do think that we should be encouraging our agencies to do more for first parents and their communities, as well as to not tolerate unethical practices by any of their employees or anyone else they work with, I also still really want to add to our family. I do think its an excellent question, Lori.
Tracy,
I just want to say that I agree with this last comment whole heartedly (actually I agree with most of what you have said). I hear that comment all the time – would the birthmom have kept the baby if I had given her the money I paid for the adoption and I always think “now, why would do that? I want a child.” I also agree with being perfectly comfortable with her getting some money – not as a bribe or a pay off – just to help her out. If you think about domestic adoption the birthmoms often have lots of expenses paid (including rent) during pregnancy. It really would be the same thing. Of course, that is not the law I would never be okay with it happening while it was against the rules but I would not care if the rules changes to allow that to happen.
On a side not Tracy, in reference to your first post, I know how you feel. I saw a lot of this after my son came home (from Guatemala) and it was the agency I choose at that time that was treated the way PLAN is being treated now. I felt offended and personally attacked as well.
Best of luck to you and your family.
Let me tell you a true story. After I wrote, but before I had a chance to hit send, my first post to this blog, we received our referral. Our baby was found by a man traveling down a road who heard the cries. He turned the baby over to the police and left a sworn statement. With the baby was a letter from the mother that briefly described the circumstances of the birth, the birth date, and a name for the baby — and asked that the baby be adopted into a loving family.
As one friend of ours who heard the story said, “Aww, the mother got her wish.” However due to these blogs and hateful posts I don’t get that same feeling. I append “or so the paperwork says” in my mind every time I tell the story.
What these negative blogs and posts are doing is in absolutely no way helpful — not to the children in Vietnam or the situation there — at all. There is nothing PAPs can do to the process; we are pawns in the process. We’re talking about two foreign government bodies, one of them an obviously corrupt Third World government, and the other a First World government with its own rampant but mostly hidden corruption. If the US pulls out of Vietnam even more atrocities are likely to occur than are alleged here. The four years that Vietnam was closed — to the US only — is the result of them trying to meet US standards and finally coming to an agreement. So if you want to help the situation talk to the government agencies perhaps, but don’t piss of the Vietnamese or they will stop cooperating, and don’t rile the US or they will pull out permanently. And then you will have even less than the practically no influence you have. If you’ve already adopted, then talk to the agency you adopted from about concerns for your next adoption.
But whatever you do, don’t threaten a PAP’s moral fiber and humanitarian ethics. You — and you know who you are, and anyone reading these can tell who you are — have ruined for us, and other present and future APs who are unfortunate enough to be forwarded these links, the story and history that we will one day hand down to our child. I’m sure my anger and cynicism will fade over time, and I will truly be able to tell my daughter, with a good conscience, that the papers we received are the history of her coming to us.
Some of you have taken changes in the system, and evidence of that, and blown up and fabricated a worst-case-scenario horror story for everyone ELSE adopting right now. And meanwhile you have your babies safely at home — which you should be caring for instead of writing these hateful blanket statements judging others. And to even suggest that someone pull out of the process and switch to your holier-than-thou agencies has got to be one of the most hurtful and, hopefully unintended, evil things to suggest. How dare you?! You haven’t the slightest knowledge of what is going on IN Vietnam. NOIDs are being handed out left and right to agencies. In my opinion, to slow down the process and require a better paper trail so as to achieve better oversight, WHICH IS A GOOD THING. And my bet is all the agencies will get at least one at some point as well.
We did the research and due diligence in advance, and believe as much as anybody that our agency is honest and true to their humanitarian goals, and I know how much overall good they do in Vietnam. I am sure as hell-fire not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and turn my back on them because of a misfiled piece of paperwork in thousands of adoptions over the years. To suggest so is absurd, to say the absolute least.
It is infuriating that these people, whose agencies’ have not yet been called into question have the gall to question the ethics of people who up until this moment have fully believed their agencies to be above-board — when the NOIDs have only been issued in the last month after years and years of operations without questions of integrity. To do so is presumptuous, illogical, unfounded, hurtful, and judgmental.
So thank you for taking a huge chunk of the possible joy of of receiving the referral for our first child. But believe me, I am still overjoyed.
BEST COMMENT I’VE EVER SEEN ON THIS WEBSITE.
Thank you.
VN Adopter,
First I want to say congratulations to you because getting your referral should only envoke happy and joyous feelings and I am sorry that is not the case for you and most likely many others out there. I hope that you did not think by my telling Jen V. to avoid one of these agencies that I thought all people should pull out? She is not deeply involved in the agency at this point and doesn’t have as much time, money and emotion invested as many other people do. I think one of the worst positions to be in at this time is yours….to be looking at your beautiful baby and not knowing what is truly the right thing to do. I personally believe both of my children had loving parents that chose to leave them in public places where they would be found alive and safe. I do not doubt my childs story (no matter which agency I used) because it does me no good to do so. There are no red flags (IMO) in my paperwork and I choose to believe the circumstances of their begining and for their sake I will convey my feelings to them. I want them to grow up thinking their birthparents loved them enough to place them somewhere they would be found. I hope you can also do this because to do otherwise serves no purpose (IMO). We all get to chose our agencies and if you are happy with your agency than go with your gut (I am not saying you should not be because I personally do not know anything about the agencies and would not assume to know which are ethical or unethical based on what I read on blogs). I feel very bad that I may have contributed to your pain and anger by what I said to Jen V and if that is the case I am very sorry. I will ALWAYS support the PAPs, no matter what because I think that is our job as APs. So if I have in any way contributed to stealing even an ounce of your joy at this time I am sorry. I am not going back on what I said to JenV, but I don’t think it can be applied across the board, some people are obviously much more deeply involved than others with their agencies. I hope you sail through your Embassy appointment without a second thought and bring your beautiful daughter home. And yes, your anger and pain will subside with time.
Tracy
Thank you, Tracy. I’m sorry if my post seemed aimed at yours; it was not. Yours is the happy post among quite a few negative out there. In retrospect, much of my anger may have come from the further reading I did after reading here. This was just the first place. I also posted this same message at goodhappenings.com and honestly think most of this was directed at the posters there, and some here. At any rate, I just had to get it off my chest before I stopped reading any further. I may follow up, but I have to run now, and I didn’t want any hard feelings to linger in the wrong place. My apologies to you again. Your post brought calm back to a lot of people, I’m sure.
The parents are not to blame? The parents are helpless pawns? That’s an interesting perspective coming from people who are paying the bills of not only the adoption agencies but also the governments!
If there is a pawn in this process, it’s definitely not the parents, it’s the children. They’re the ones who (for better or worse) are losing their culture, their birth parents, possibly their identity. We parents have a responsibility to these children, just like a lost child we find in the mall. We need to do what’s best for the child, even if it’s inconvenient.
Let’s think about accountability and how our consumer society works. If you found a man selling warm meat from his pick-up truck by the side of the road, and you bought some and got sick eating it, it’s certainly the man’s fault for selling bad meat. But, nevertheless I think you need to take some responsibility for your decision. Let’s say the pick-up truck man had a health inspection certificate which was clearly not earned, then you can blame government corruption as well as the man. But, you STILL need to take responsibility for your decision. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should, right? Now, let’s say the man is in a clean store selling the same meat – now you may have no idea anything is wrong, but if you educate yourself about how to shop for meat – you may save yourself from getting sick.
I am not implying that agency choice is this easy, because it certainly isn’t. Here’s the tricky thing: Agencies are not licensed based on their ethical or moral behavior, they are licensed based on whether they follow the law of the US (not Viet Nam). Similarly, BBB complaints against an agency are coming from clients who have a contract dispute, most likely not an ethical concern.
Think about this, not all complaints about agencies are equal. A complaint about an agency that was slow, or didn’t provide enough help – is not on the same ground as a complaint about an agency that threatens to sue people for posting basic facts on a blog. An agency that asks you to lie to an embassy official, is quite different than a complaint about an agency that refuses to refund money when a client changes their mind mid process. You need to use some judgement here. I think there needs to be more openness about the experiences people are having with various agencies. Unfortunately, given the state of the adoption industry, agencies have rivalries, and some would undoubtedly corrupt any anonymous feedback system that was put into place.
So it goes – before we plunk down $20-30,000 that essentially goes into a black hole – we need to learn how these international adoption systems REALLY work, so we can educate ourselves about what signs to look for. That to me is the purpose of this blog. I don’t like to see people taking the discussion personally and being offended. These are complex issues, and I want to know everything I can about how these children came to us. And they deserve us taking the time to learn.
I feel bad that PLAN families feel attacked by other families. What I don’t understand is why PLAN would put its own families at risk by insisting on working with a person (Cherie Clark) whose own families were handed NOIDS (at least seven) by the same US. agency that PLAN clients now have to face (to get a visa). Saying “Clark is just a travel agent” is not the answer. First of all, most of you know that’s not accurate and the U.S. Embassy knows this too, so PLAN is putting its own clients at risk. Second of all, what do the families get in return for that risk? I know Clark is super “nice”, but let’s pretend she really does just help parents find hotels — is she really that GREAT of a travel agent that PLAN would potentially put its families at risk by having them associate with a person with 7 NOIDs in her past? Now PLAN has families with NOIDS. I don’t know the details of those cases but doesn’t PLAN wonder about what risk Clark might have been with those NOIDs? Nobody can say, “The NOIDs have nothing to do with Clark, or the US Embassy’s lack of trust because of Clark”, etc.) We don’t know either way right now but for goodness sakes, why would PLAN even expose their families to the risk?
VNAdopter, a referral is joyful news indeed, and you should savor it. Since your post was about many other things, though, I feel compelled to respond to just a few of them.
First, I have been deeply concerned about the ethics of Vietnam adoption, and I don’t have any baby “safely at home” — despite years of wanting to. And I don’t know if I will ever raise the Vietnamese child I would wish. You can’t tarnish all the people you perceive as critics with one brush.
Second, one just cannot say that adoptions in Vietnam have gone on for years without question. They were shut down; re-opened in a system with holes on its face; and by January 2007 groups were publishing concerns about the new process and some agencies were closing doors. Does that mean people were wrong to adopt? No, but it was hardly a stable program.
Most importantly, I read in your post something that reflects my own disillusionment and bitterness over how stories of corruption have irrevocably changed my happiness over my deeply heartfelt journey to my child. I used to have almost nothing but excitement and joy over adoption; over the last year, reading these boards and other accounts, that turned to deep angst.
But I welcome that. Okay, maybe not welcome. I should say I am exceedingly grateful for it — for all of the people who shared tremendously sad and scary stories of their fraudulent adoptions; for people who shined a flashlight on the hidden machinery of intercountry adoption, showing me all the traps and snares where things can get stuck; for people painstakingly piecing together fragments of information so that we could try to get a bigger picture as a whole; for blogs of adult adoptees explaining their concerns over their origins. I have learned that there are questions I will need to return to forever. But as cold and hard as it is to be overwhelmed right now by the dark side of what I am doing, and the potential for harm, I feel so strongly as though I need to spend the time there now — so my child doesn’t have to later. I feel as though I need to be the harshest critic of my adoption, so that I can find the answers my child will give to the lesser critics he or she will meet down the road.
I miss the happiness and romantic (for me) view of adoption I had before. I miss moral certainty. But I only want those back if I am sure that they reflect the entire truth, and I don’t know if that will happen. I still think I will find a different, wiser, kind of happiness in my adoption, and an equally passionate connection to my child as we experience the both joyous and painful mystery of adoption. So I do not blame others for their questions. I may blame those who encourage others not to give me answers.