the dark side

Recently I have noticed there are some concerns within the Vietnam adoption world regarding negativity. Mainly, I think, this negativity is being felt on blogs and on discussion groups.  I can’t say I disagree.

There have been a lot of discussions lately about ethics, quick referrals, the stability of the Vietnam program and the overwhelming requests for a HBG AYAP. (HBG: Healthy Baby Girl, AYAP: As Young As Possible) (As if we need more acronyms right? 😉 ) And because no one will ever fully agree on what is ethical/unethical and what “rights”, if any, PAP’s should be allowed to have, there is bound to be heated discussions. And we all know how easy it is for well-meaning comments to be misunderstood thanks to an inability to express emotion using only fingers and a keyboard. So, inevitably, toes will be stepped on, feelings will get hurt and people may end up feeling very frustrated.  That is the sad reality of internet relations and we all really need to think before typing, and we need to re-read our comments & posts before committing them to public view.

Remember, no one has the exact same moral compass and no one has the exact same opinions on ethics, so there are sure to be disagreements.

However, does that mean we should never express our concerns or opinions? Should we hit the mute button just because what we have to say may be what someone else does not want to hear?

Instead, shouldn’t we take down all blinders, set aside our fears and really pay attention to what is being said of the Vietnam adoption program? Of course it’s not always easy to dispell rumors from fact, but certainly we should attempt to educate ourselves about the signs of possible unethical behaviors, right? And shouldn’t we be able to share our own concerns and experiences without fear of being looked upon with contempt? Negative concerns and experiences are not being brought forth to be trendy. From what I have read they are being brought forth by PAPs and APs who have true concerns over the well-being of the entire Vietnam program and the children still in Vietnam.

If we pretend the adoption program is without ethical flaws, then we are doing ourselves a great disservice. We all know there is no such thing as a perfect adoption system. And talking about possible corruption does not create corruption. Perhaps it is NOT talking that may help create problems, or at least allow problems to go on, unresolved.

I believe we as AP’s and PAP’s hold a great responsibility to discuss our concerns and experiences. We need to keep ourselves heard. We need to keep up our vigil for the children in Vietnam, for the Vietnam program and for our own children so they can look back knowing we did everything we could to ensure an ethical process.

We may not all agree on the specifics of the program, but I know we all want to see adoptions continue and that means keeping our heads out of the sand, embracing the positives and also informing ourselves about the negatives.

So, what do you think?

  • Is there too much negativity in the Vietnam online community?
  • Do you think focusing on the ‘dark side’ of adoption is a sign of carelessness or diligence?
  • Do you think PAP/AP’s should try to stick to the positive aspects only? And perhaps keep the negatives confined to private emails only?
  • Do you think it’s possible for PAP/AP’s to cross the line with their concerns?
  • Ethics

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    25 Responses

    1. Thank you! I’m grateful for this post. This is something we’ve been needing to discuss. I’ve been trying to express these same things.

      Perhaps we should talk about ways in which respect can be crossed in these discussions. While I believe these discussions to be of utmost importance, there has definitely been feelings of being judged or disrespected because of our own personal choices. If we can conduct these discussions openly, honestly, and with respect, our community will come a long way in developing for the better.

    2. Thank you for the great post. I have been a silent reader for several months now. I do feel there has been quite a bit of negativity on the blogs and discussion groups. I know that it is hard to express emotions online and that it is very easy to mistake a remark, but I feel lately the posts have been very judgemental and disrespectful of people’s personal choices and opinions.
      I, like Melinda, do feel these discussions are important and that we all need to share our experiences good and bad, but I feel many of them have gone “past the line” into carelessness. I have been trying to educate myself and learn from experienced PAP’s and AP’s, but it can become overwhelming and discouraging when it seems peopled are judged for the feelings or choices. I feel when the conversations come to this point, more PAP may remain silent (like myself). I think Melinda said it best, the Vietnam community will benefit from open, honest and respectful disucssions.

    3. There are very “gray” answers in respons to your questions. Yes, people do need to give a little extra thougth when commenting in blogs and groups. However, we have to be able to talk with one another, and also be a support. Not all young babies who are reffered are unethical, and people should take care when commenting on people’s blogs, when they don’t know about a particualar situation. I know many AP /PAP’s who are staying off the boards/blogs/internent because they are afriad of being “flamed” etc… this doesn’t mean that their refferals are unethical etc… I think this “negativity’ and “how did you get that baby” additude is going to hurt the adoption community in the long run..

    4. Not talking about negative aspects of the Vn program will not make them go away. Of course everyone should always avoid personal attacks, but it isn’t just the adoption, but raising our transracially adopted children that will be challenging and complicated…this is only the beginning of being open to opposing opinions so that we can all learn and grow and do what is in the very best interest of the children. We all need to be sensitive and respectful–but it isn’t about us, but about the kids.

    5. It’s true that things often get misconstrued via email/posting. But much of the negativity I see on boards/listservs comes from those who speak the hard truth clashing with those who don’t want to hear the truth. When someone says that an agency that promises too young of babies too quickly might be doing something unethical, those who want that (or already are home with that) feel threatened and attacked so they lash out. Then those who are frustrated because they’re waiting so long in order to have an ethical adoption are resentful because they’re being attacked just for speaking the truth–and they still don’t have their child! It’s hard all around. I find myself avoiding the boards these days, while we wait. It’s healthier for me to surround myself with others who see adoption as I do and are not in such a rush that they’re willing to put on blinders just to get that young baby asap. That’s why I’m so grateful for this site. Thank you.

    6. I agree with Heidi’s comment in that it seems the folks trying to expose the not so pretty facts of VN adoptions are the ones being attacked. Yes, it is difficult to read and comprehend views that are different than our own, but how else will we learn? How will the adoption process ever improve if we all insist upon burying our heads in the sand? I admit that when we first began our adoption journey I, too, ignored things that didn’t match my own personal beliefs and felt that the people voicing these concerns were just on a witch-hunt. Thankfully, I kept reading, and I realized that perhaps it was my inexperienced perspective that was skewed not the many others who were speaking from actual experience. I have come to greatly value blogs that pose hard questions and evoke emotional responses. Without these examples of “negativity” I fear I would have entered into motherhood with my head deeply buried in the sand.

    7. So how do we open up conversations to everyone? To the PAPs and APs that are now silent because of feeling judged and disrespected – how do we be respectful of that and talk about the hard issues, issues that have to do with corruption and gender. . .how do we say, with openess and respect (just as a side note: I don’t personally think that the conversations happening have been in and of itself disrespectful or unopen to differing opinions, but I do know that that is how other people have felt and I think that should and can be taken into account) – things that have to do with personal choice, things that are hard, like “we’re afraid the high demand for baby girls will ultimately lead to baby trafficking because it has happened before”?

      It really has become the big white elephant in the tiny room that no one wants to talk about. There are hurt feelings out there right now. For that I’m sorry. I’m not sorry at all for the conversations and things said. There are going to be other subjects that we need to discuss as a community that may feel the same way but not be about gender. But S is completely right in that this is about the children. We want what is best for all of them. That can involve uncomfortable discussions because talking about adoption includes talking about things like baby trafficking, racial issues, agency choices, attachment. Because we pump money into this system, because this is about our children, we have a responsibility of having the knowledge of what is going on in the system. It can be overwhelming. I can fully admit to that. That doesn’t take away from its importance.

      I guess part of what I wonder is – is it possible to be more inclusive in these discussions? Do we need to carry on like we are, with the elephant of resentment standing next to us? Because, we do need to continue these types of discussions. Is there anyone who has been against these that can clue us in on how to be more inclusive while talking about gender choice or agency choice or race and culture (ie. the love of Vietnam discussion)?

    8. I would never comment “How did you get that baby” but I have thought it when I see a baby less than 2 months old referred! But then neither did I comment “Congratulations.” I guess I just stay silent and contribute to the “elephant in the living room” problem. I really don’t think there’s any nice way to say to someone who just got their referral “That sounds fishy because the process of clearing that child for adoption is supposed to take at least 3-4 months.” If they haven’t already read that information somewhere and had their own concerns, I”m not sure how you could say it in a way that wouldn’t cause them to be defensive, now that they have their referral. And even if you didnt’ say it to them directly, they may be defensive about any conversation that clearly includes their situation. Heads that want to stay in the sand will be in the sand. Not sure there’s much anyone else can do about it.

    9. Personally, I am a little surprised to see this submission published on VVAI. It’s not that it’s a bad post. It’s actually a really good post – well written, thoughtful, and it sums up the VN adoption community’s recent sentiment. I just think it’s the wrong forum for this post. Why? Because it legitimizes the criticism that perhaps raising ethical issues on public forums is just too hard to hear, too negative, too unpopular, and makes people too uncomfortable. Isn’t that EXACTLY the point in having voices for Vietnam adoption integrity? AP’s and PAP’s NEED more resources like this. And probably what makes VVAI so great is that it is above all the really petty, heated stuff that goes on elsewhere. I always know I can count on VVAI to raise the good questions in non-inflammatory ways, where everyone does feel more comfortable reading and sharing. I just hope we don’t buy into the “let’s quiet down and keep ourselves in the dark because it’s too painful to talk about the truth” mentality I’ve seen floating around lately.
      Have we taken it too far? Apparently not, as there are still hundreds of PAP’s signing with agencies who will promises the youngest the fastest, still hundreds who haven’t given consideration to the deeper issues surrounding adoption, still a majority who have never considered gender selection in the same breath as adoption ethics.
      There is a lot of credence to the point that internet communication is less than ideal, and perhaps a lot of points get lost because our emotion and tone are obscured by the limitations of our writing.
      That said, I can speak for my own blog and my own writing when I say that I keep it a public forum and allow comments on my posts because I learn and benefit from the discussions, and others have told me the same. Keep the negativity to private emails? Yes, leaving a nasty or intentionally offensive comment on someone else’s blog is just horribly rude and poor blogging etiquette. But as far as posting or responding without resorting to personal attacks on public forums goes, no one has to read the public forums if they’d rather keep their heads in the sand, as Jen put it. While many readers may have fallen silent, I can tell you that I have never had so many readers as I now do since my string of controversial ethics posts. If we dance around and no one speaks the hard truth, which may offend some but get others thinking, NO ONE benefits. Just like if we see things but stay quiet about them, we’re sort of contributing to the ethical problems surrounding the VN adoption program. That’s how I see it anyway. I have said this numerous times, but when I was new to the blogging world, Mrs. Broccoli Guy was the only one willing to take those risks and start up the dialogue about agency ethics. I was pissed off and offended when I started reading, but I kept coming back for more because it sunk in on some level, then became something I couldn’t ignore anymore. And it eventually changed my thinking and made me realize the bigger picture. If I offend 10 people initially, but even just 1 comes around to eventually acknowledge the issue, I’m ok with that.
      This may be a really lame analogy to anyone else, but it reminds me a lot of AA patients I’ve worked with, many of whom told me their doctors just wanted to have them keep coming in for routine checks, so they’d never call the patients out on their obvious alcohol abuse so as not to offend them and scare them off. But then many recalled the exact doctor who finally called their bluff and told the hard truth: that they were abusing alcohol and doing permanent damage to their bodies. Most reacted initially by firing their doctor and leaving in a huff. But it was only because they were confronted and a doctor was willing to take that risk that they eventually came around to see the truth too and seek treatment for it.

    10. I am one that has signed with an agency that refers younger babies. I do not believe they are doing anything unethical. I have asked questions and researched how this is possible when other agencies are referring babies significantly older. I know the answers for myself and I know what I am comfortable with. I do not believe my agency is doing anything unethical. I have researched them and spoken to many people who have used them. They are consistent, they are dilligent and they are faster than a lot of other places (not all and they are not necessarily the youngest referrals either, but they are young). I feel silenced in a lot of places because I know people will accuse me of just not caring. This is simply not the case. The thing I feel that really damages us a community is the unwillingness of those people who have one idea to accept that anything else is acceptable. We all (people who are comfortable with younger referrals and those who are not) need to accept that people are going to disagree with our choice. We need to accept that we can all voice our own feelings or comfort levels without being accusatory. We need to accept that just because someone else thinks that what we are comfortable with is unacceptable does not mean it is unacceptable for us.

    11. Laurie,
      I just want to jump in and first say thanks for the nice comments about my soapbox posts… it is hard to put ourselves out there and it’s a great encouragement to know that something I said made a difference for you. 🙂
      And second, I don’t think Rachel is advocating that we all “play nice” and not bring up anything difficult… I read her post as just a way to bring this elephant out into the open and talk about it and ask people to think about this. Because people complain about the “negativity” and perhaps don’t realize that bloggers who post on controversial topics are not trying to demonize any particular person, only to point out real, serious ethical concerns. And maybe when we stop and realize that a heated discussion doesn’t have to be a bad thing, we’ll be willing to take a little ‘negativity’ in exchange for a better more ethical system. (um, that went from me summing up Rachel’s views to spouting my own!!)
      And be assured… VVAI is here for one reason and one reason only: to advocate for ethics and integrity in Vietnam adoptions. And if that makes some people uncomfortable, well, they don’t have to keep reading! But I hope people will because we don’t try to start flame wars or cast aspersions… we just want to educate. Most AP’s are just not aware of all these kinds of issues – and if we don’t talk about them, how can we expect things to improve?

    12. I absolutely agree that we have to keep talking about the “hard stuff,” even if it comes off as negative, even if we touch on subjects that those with their heads in the sand don’t want to read about. If I read about someone receiving a referral of an infant under 60 days old, you bet that’s going to raise my suspicions. As part of the international adoption community at large, I think we all have to be aware of these red flags. It doesn’t do our children any good to think that it’s all just rainbows and kittens out there. If those of us who are called out for bringing up the “hard stuff” take it personally, I think we have to consider the source of the negativity. Perhaps the negativity is coming from a place of ignorance or defense. But we are *all* cogs in the wheel of a system which is tenuous at best.

    13. I too think that the hard subjects need to be talked about, that’s how we all learn and it forces us to think. I think of the biggest problems is no one really knows what’s going on with the system but they think they do. I saw several times just in the comments on this board that seeing a baby under 2 months old referred was a red flag because it takes 3-4 months to clear the paperwork. But then I read on http://www.adoptionbuzz.org that Vietnam is still allowing soft referrals, so it kind of goes back to who knows best? If VIETNAM is allowing the agencies to circumvent the system then who are we to say they are wrong? They are their children so we go by their rules. I’m not saying there isn’t a huge potential for corruption, but just because an agency is doing soft referrals does not mean they are being sneaky, unethical or corrupt. I think many people in the adoption community have decided that they know best and every other agency that isn’t doing it their way is wrong. There is no standardization yet, so I don’t think we can do a blanket statement that agencies that are giving fast referrals are unethical. I don’t think just because an agency is slow at giving out referrals they are necessarily good or ethical, maybe they are just inefficient or don’t know how to navigate the system yet because they are so new to it. I think what we NEED as an adoption community are people to start standing up and taking a stand when you see unethical behavior-name names and give facts. That is going to be the only way people will start believing that there may be more to an agency than they know about and think twice before using them. Until we hear from people first hand it’s all just rumor and there seem to be two sides forming…(slow vs quick) which really isn’t helping the debate. I think the people who are using the “ethical” …ie: slow agencies …need to realize that there is not just one way to facilitate an adoption in Vietnam (good or bad that is how Vietnam has set it up for now) and those that are using “fast”..ie: unethical agencies.. need to keep their minds and ears open and realize sometimes things really are too good to be true….or ethical.

      Tracy
      http://ameliarae.typepad.com/amelia_jack/

    14. Tracy,
      Couple things: Know the source – apparently AdoptionBuzz is full of interesting adoption info and it may all be accurate. But it is important to note that it is run by an agency person (Orphans Overseas, I believe) so clearly he is only going to post info that supports what his agency is doing and telling their clients. Agencies can be a good source of information, but even the best ones have their biases.
      Second – very fast referrals and travel times are a reason to pause and consider how the agency is able to do so… as it stands now, there are far more people applying to adopt from Vietnam than healthy babies ready to refer. Speed is not a definitive measure of ethics, but it can be a helpful indicator.
      Lastly, and this may need to be a blog post in itself, but I don’t think that just because a sending country is allowing agencies to circumvent the system that makes it automatically okay. The system is in place for a reason – to protect the children. And unethical behavior happens at all levels and on both sides… a good agency will do everything in its power to act ethically, regardless of what they might be able to get away with.

    15. I agree with Tracy that there are many complexities to the process and it’s not as simple as saying “fast referrals=bad; slow referrals=good.”
      Beyond the referral times, when judging agencies, there are many other red flags to look for. For instance, does your agency contract require you to wire fees directly to a bank account in Vietnam? Because one of the most popular agencies right now does this – and for me it was absolutely unacceptable. This means that there are no records kept on how the money is spent. This agency is not promising fast baby girl referrals. But they are still taking in lump sums of cash that cannot be traced by the parents, the IRS or anyone else. Is this more of a red flag than a soft referral? Maybe so, maybe not. For me, it was enough not to work with them. But I rarely see anyone question this practice. In fact, I see parents who are with this particular agency speaking out about “ethics” frequently. And it drives me crazy.
      As far as addressing the tough questions, yes! Let’s talk about it. But in addition to focussing on gender and referral times, let’s look at some of these things: the fact that the DIA has still not published a fee schedule; or that some agencies are suddenly increasing their fees for unexplained reasons; or why none of us really know how much of our fees is going to the orphanages; or why some agencies say that gifts sent to the orphanage will never get to the children; or why we don’t see much signs of improvement in the orphanages after the recent influx of American dollars; or why one agency will admit they won’t work with certain hospitals because they suspect corruption; or why dossier requirements differ from agency to agency; or the possible connections between traffickers and agency & gov’t officials. These are all things that I stumbled across during my own casual online research, without being a professional or having much time. Geez, people, there is so MUCH to examine. Let’s stop judging each other and start looking at the bigger picture. While parents have an obligation to do their best to ensure ethics in adoptions, the real control lies with those who are in charge: the governments, the agencies, the orphanage directors. Let’s focus our energies on how we can work together to make change within those entities, rather than blaming each other.

    16. I think we all need to step back and reexamine whether there is judgment flying about toward people or whether the judgment is, in fact, a harsh and brutally honest examination of process. It is so easy for a parent who put time and energy into researching their own adoption to feel personally judged and defensive if their agency, or a practice that their agency participates in, is called into question. This seems to make parents feel as if THEY are being called into question, as if THEY are being called unethical and scrutinized. On the contrary, it is vitally important to continue to talk about the hard issues and it is vitally important for parents to stop feeling as if these issues are directed at themselves and realize that the issue is bigger than any one person and the choices that they made.

      But for those instances when it seems pretty obvious that a subject is being directed at on particular situation – such as when an unknowing parent shares a situation (in happiness!) that is grossly unethical on their blog or in a mailing list for instance – do we have an obligation to call them on it? For me the answer is yes. But it is important to be gentle, to remember that they may not have any clue that what their agency is doing lacks integrity.

      If you are the recipient of such information, I think it is VITAL that as an adoptive parent you step back, take yourself and your needs out of the equation and look at the information that is presented and the issue as a whole. So often people hear things they don’t want to hear and cry “Rude” or “mean” when in reality the information is just hard to process because it is not what we wanted to hear. If there is no name calling, no accusations, then it is entirely possible that the reaction you are having is a response to information that is difficult to hear and digest and no one was being “mean” at all. Of course there are “mean” people out there but I think they are few and far between and far more often people are accused of flaming or being judgmental simply because their information is different, their opinions are different and they share their thoughts.

      Although we can hold agencies and adoption personnelle accountable for past actions, when it comes to APs and governments, the goals for me is to effect future change. I’m not so much concerned about how an AP feels when they read the hard issues and how defensive they feel about them. I’m more concerned with how a PAP might use the information to make wiser choices and to expect a higher standard from their agency and the government from this point forward. And in light of that, it is vital that we keep talking about the hard issues.

    17. I am glad to read it. It means people are not silent about problems and concerns they have. It helps get us all out of the dark. Personally, I see much of it coming from families dealing with agencies with crappy communication, and agencies that do not prepare parents for the full spectrum of what their adoption will include.

    18. This article right here has me absolutely horrified–this is why we must not be silent–it is from an Irish newspaper, and I am removing the name of the actual facilitator b/c I know there may be issues with lawsuits, but these kinds of things are very likely taking place right now in Vietnam and it chills me to the bone to imagine parents who have had their children taken from them. I know that the facilitator in question was still working with an American adoption agency in the fall of 2006, and may still be.

      “According to her, many of the children adopted by Irish people were described as “abandoned orphans” – even though the directors of the local children’s homes knew exactly where their parents were living.

      She said a fraudulent history was prepared because if the mother is listed as known, there has to be a police investigation, which would reduce the amount of money individuals made from each adoption.

      “If you bring in the police that means more money and more people. That means deductions and the pie is cut into more pieces,” she said.

      “They make up the birth certificate. They declare the child abandoned even though they know the mother.

      “They won’t tell you. They just say ‘abandoned at the gate, at the door’ and they will bring out witnesses [to verify this].”

      Listing the mother might also mean an investigation into whether the parents were aware of, or had given their consent to, the adoption.

      Ms X also said that most of $4,500 humanitarian aid which Irish parents are obliged to give as part of the adoption fee is stolen and distributed through the “corrupt ring” of adoption officials.

      She listed those who benefited, but the Irish Independent cannot name the individuals for legal reasons.

      These large sums of money for each adoption mean that officials are motivated to separate babies from their parents even if it is unnecessary.

      Children can be taken from their parents because officials claim they are abused or unfit parents. However, officials receive a substantial corrupt payment for every child that is made available for adoption by Irish parents.

      Ms X said false receipts are produced to show that the money is spent correctly on humanitarian aid but that it is spread among officials in corrupt payments to ensure children with forged paperwork are available for adoption. She said that unless the false bills are paid, facilitators won’t get the children for adoption – “but don’t quote me on that”.

      Dr Vu Doc Long, Vietnam’s State Director of International Adoptions, denies there is any problem with Vietnamese adoptions into Ireland, although he admits the humanitarian aid is not audited.

      “We have no regulations covering the donations,” he told the Irish Independent.

      “Ms X does not have to show how she spent the one million dollars – it is the responsibility of the Irish Adoption Board.”

      Ms X’s appointment as the Vietnamese facilitator was hailed as a clean-up of the previous corrupt process.

      Adoptions had been suspended because of corruption and were only reopened with the appointment of Ms X and the introduction of new regulations.

      According to Ms X, the children adopted under the previous regulations “were pulled from families”.

      The complaints ranged from concerns about switching babies at the last moment to demands for extra charges not authorised by the Adoption Board. According to some adoptive parents, Ms Xs callous attitude meant she was nicknamed ‘Dr Evil’ by those hoping to adopt.

      Additional reporting by

      Edel Kennedy in Dublin

      – Ann McElhinney and Phelim McAleer

    19. Hey Rachel – nice post. Two things come to my mind.

      1) It’s important to keep talking about the negative things, because new families are coming to the process every day. They’re excited about adding a child to their family after, perhaps, years of frustration in trying to have that child. They don’t know which questions to ask until someone points them out. However, I also think jumping on a ‘newbie’ who hasn’t followed Vietnam adoptions for the last 2 years (or more) will help anything. Direct people to resources, gently point them to the right questions, and educate – without criticizing. Whether we like it or not, there are agencies offering things that make most of us shiver… but if we don’t educate the ‘newbies’, who are they going to choose? They’ll choose what seems like the best and fastest way to build their families.

      2) One of the reasons these internet arguments occur? Pure jealousy. I have felt it while watching people receive referrals when they started the process months after I did. And I’m feeling it now, watching people leave 3 weeks after referral to bring home their child while I’ll still be waiting another 2-3 months for travel. Does it make me feel defensive about my agency and my process and the ethics of it all? Absolutely. Should I attack other people using different agencies because of it? No. But I think we should acknowledge that the feeling is there. At least *I* need to acknowledge that it’s there 🙂

    20. A cautionary tale: Years ago, pre-internet, when my husband and I adopted our children, who are Korean, adoptive parents who spoke about the “dark side” of Korean adoption were shunned. The notion that nothing bad could happen in Korean adoption was prevalent, and anyone who spoke out was deemed an ingrate, disloyal to the agency that brought them their child.

      The result was a practice that is known to day to have had many flaws. I know first hand, I’ve had to help a child through the shock of learning that the information we had been given was false, and to help that child rebuild an identity that for ten years had been something else.

      My story is one of the less glaring examples of what can happen when silence reigns. So please – keep talking! You’re not alone!

    21. “so clearly he is only going to post info that supports what his agency is doing and telling their clients.”

      I just read the above in comment #14 by Christina.

      Christina, the sad truth is that YOU just did exactly the negative that is the problem. Just so that you know that what you said is completely incorrect, Orphans Overseas does NOT refer ANY baby before it is paper ready. They know of the orphans that are being made paper ready for the agency, BUT they DO NOT refer till their paper-readiness is complete.

      ALL of the negative I have read, heard and been fed has been either hearsay, gossip, rumor or so old that it’s not even worth the breath that’s speaking it.

      We adopted from China in 1999-2001 and never, ever did I hear so much negative gossip and rumor than I have heard in the short 4 months I’ve been in process for my VN adoption. And it’s things exactly like what Christina said that start it.

      For example, if I was reading that and I was trusting information I read on blogs as this, I’d assume Orphans Overseas does something wrong or unethical and thus they’re a BAD agency. I don’t know that I’d do research because already, how can I trust them? The person making the comment said so and so therefore I trust what they say.

      Now, hopefully people aren’t doing that, but it’s exactly how the negativity starts…and it’s very hard to stop.

      Just my 2 cents.

    22. Suz,
      My tone may have been a little negative (I admit, I get a little cynical when people quote agencies as if they are the most reliable source out there) but I stand by what I said and I fail to see where I have said anything untrue. Tad DOES work for OO and therefore whatever he says IS going to be based on his experience and knowledge as an agency person. I did NOT say that OO gives “soft referrals” — I have not worked with OO so I can not say with any first hand knowledge what they do or do not do. However, I think people need to be aware that ANY agency has a bias and it’s always a good idea to look for other sources (such as the US embassy) to verify information. In addition, I do not think “VN allows it” is an acceptable line of reasoning when determining what is ethical or appropriate. The fact is that many agencies have found loopholes or other ways around the adoption regulations that while they may not be technically “illegal” they are certainly not what the law intended and often not in a family or child’s best interests. (I am NOT saying this is the case with OO, but I can name at least 3 agencies off the top of my head that are doing improper things. NO, I won’t name them because I have second hand information and while I know the information is reliable, I don’t think it’s right to pass along 2nd hand info without good verification.)

    23. I’m going to add something else to chew on to this mix! I have noticed that much of the negativity in the adoption experience isn’t about truth or honesty at all. It is about just plain old BAD ATTITUDES!

      I realize that we all come to this process with our own stories (and often, our own baggage!), but there is an overwhelming attitude in “adoption land” that the process is just horribly tough! What is our the source of this perspective? Perhaps if we would all pull our heads out of the trees for a few minutes, we might see the forest of blessings that come from getting to add a new child to our family! Wow, this is a GOOD thing, not a horrible experience to be tolerated until it is completed and we can go back to our just-like-everyone-else lives! I’m not negating the realities of waiting for a child that we already love in our heart, I’m just saying that the wait doesn’t have to make us so bitter and negative!

      Perhaps if we started putting an emphasis on thankfulness – to all parties, including the country of VN for allowing us the opportunity to adopt their children, to the US for allowing us Visas, to the agencies for working tirelessly to facilitate adoptions, to the adoptive families who have gone before us to pave the way, and to one another for riding this great rollercoaster along side of us, we might not all be so NEGATIVE! Our children, like every good and perfect gift in our lives, are not OWED to us – they are blessings, pure and simple. If we acted more like we were being blessed, the entire tone of adoption land would be different.

      I heard someone say recently that “PAIN IS INEVITABLE, BUT MISERY IS OPTIONAL.” I know that so many of us have been through painful experiences of infertility, miscarriage, loneliness, prejudice, and isolation in our lives. But our misery is our choice – let’s agree to choose gratefulness instead.

    24. Adoption is not the hunky-dorey thing that everyone thinks it is. There is a dark side to adoption. We were considering adoption, until we found out about all the baby trafficking that goes on, the children who are stolen from their parents, poor parents who sell their babies to orphanages to feed their families, etc. etc. We just said “no thanks” we don’t want to be involved in that. Yet, society pushes adoption on infertile couples as the only way and the best way to make a family. This is wrong. There is nothing wrong with a couple striving to have their own biological child.

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