Nicki and I have received several comments, on the blog and privately, suggesting it was a mistake to post the guest commentary about a corrupt facilitator in Vietnam. That it was, in fact, irresponsible for us to do so. There are concerns that the source or the information is unverified. Or that we should have named names. Some suggest the entire story is untrue or try to discredit the source. Others are just in a panic because the account makes it sound like corruption is rampant in Vietnam. So was it irresponsible? Should we just go ahead and delete that post?
I don’t think we should. Because this site was created as a place for people to share their experiences. It isn’t a political activism source like PEAR. It is just a source for parents to share their experiences and opinions as it relates to adoption ethics in Vietnam. We do make sure that a person is credible before we are willing to publish something they wrote. We also encourage people to use their own names but because of the nature of lawsuits in adoption right now and because of the sensitivity of the topics, we also realize that many people cannot or will not identify themselves and that this may stand in the way of families being willing to share very important stories that others can learn from. If this is all that stands in the way between a family being willing to share important information, we have no qualms at all about keeping them anonymous.
We have investigated the source of the article (who is not anonymous to us) and believe the author to be a credible source who has much to lose by sharing identity at this point. As I noted in the postscript, this account is very similar to one reported in the Irish Independent just last year. And while I do not know the name of the facilitator I have a very good guess, based on things I’ve heard from a variety of sources.
It was also suggested that instead of posting the account on VVAI, we should have directed the source to report the information to the embassy. And while we do trust the US government to do what is right for orphans when the evidence presents itself in a way they can act on, in this case there is nothing with a paper trail that can be used as evidence. It is just one person’s claims about conversations they had in Vietnam. And unfortunately, we’ve been made aware of instances when families who had direct knowledge of corruption reported the information to the embassy and got little to no response. We also have contacted the embassy on a number of occasions to ask for clarification or explanations and received no response. So what are we to do? Dismiss the information because there was no hidden camera or paperwork to prove the conversations took place?
I agree that the account seems rather sweeping in its generalizations about rich, naïve Americans and seems to suggest that the corruption is so rampant that it is unavoidable. I of course disagree with both of these suggestions. However, I did not want to change or edit the account, because then I would be speaking for someone else. This is how our source views things, from the position of someone working very closely with “connected people, living and working day to day in Vietnam. I would imagine that it could be easy to become jaded if you are daily exposed to things that from a Western perspective seem very “corrupt in nature. It is hard but we need to remember that the Vietnamese culture is very different from our own and things work differently there. Consider this insight from Culture Smart! Vietnam
“The further one goes down the chain of command in government structures, the greater the chance of being slowed down by the complicating factor of corruption. The central government may issue relatively clear guidelines, but they get muddied in implementation.
A simple Google news search of “Corruption Vietnam will bring up a number of stories on any given day, such as this one that says the Vietnamese government has documented “8,600 cases of corruption, confiscating US$180.64 million in just the first 9 months of this year. And sadly, you’ll likely also read about cases of corruption where children are exploited, such as this article, that reports, “Pedophiles also take advantage of Asian legal systems where cash bribes can lead to charges being dropped or victim’s relatives and other witnesses suddenly changing their stories, The Associated Press said.
The reality is it can be very hard to play by “American rules in Vietnam. And unfortunately, it seems many agencies do not even try. But I don’t believe that it is impossible to do so. And I believe that some agencies are in fact following the rules and procedures very carefully. (Which generally results in each step taking longer, thus the longer timelines for more ethical adoptions).
Being a source of stories and information about ethics means we are mostly reporting stories of corruption. I wish that were not true. I would like to report the positive as well. (I’m actually working right now on a positive story, but it requires a great deal of research so it may be a few weeks in coming) And we certainly welcome any positive stories that people have to share. We’re not looking for fan letters or agency endorsements, but surely some AP’s have had helpful, insightful conversations with people in Vietnam or at the Embassy, or seen firsthand the positive impact of an agency’s family preservation program. If you have good news to report, let us know, we want to share it!
It’s not easy to hear about the negative side of adoptions, especially when you are waiting for your child to come home. The process is long, tiring and stressful. But you are not in this alone. We share the burden with you, we are a community. And as a community we also share the responsibility to make sure that every adoption is processed in an ethical manner that puts the children first. So I apologize if reading that account was painful or shocking. But I can’t be sorry for shining the light on the dark places in the adoption world. If we don’t do it, who will?
48 Responses
Nicki,
Thanks for posting this! This post is much more likely to motivate and educate. It does not serve to feed the rumor mill and is much more in line with the rest of your site. The information is appreciated!
I’m glad that this was clarified. I’m very glad that the account was posted. We need so badly to have a place to discuss the issue of corruption, regardless of whether it is shocking or uncomfortable for us.
Thanks Anna but I wanted to note that I didn’t post this 🙂 I’m just hanging around defending it.
Thanks to Christina! I appreciate you taking the time to write such thorough and helpful post.
I don’t think this post was harmful or irresponsible, but I don’t think it was very helpful either to be honest. We all know there is concern about unethical agencies, but I think (as many of the commenter’s on the original thread posted) what PAP’s need is more than innuendo about an agencies ethical standards. I have been researching agencies since May 2006 and completed my Vietnam adoption in April 2007 (I also have a daughter adopted from China Dec 05) and I can tell you that I “think” I know of about 3 agencies that people think are unethical, but I couldn’t tell you with 100% certainty for sure that the ones I “think†you are talking about really are the ones people are talking about. And of those 3 no- one will give concrete evidence as to why they are unethical (i.e., they are buying babies, they are falsifying documents, they are bribing officials), to me these are unethical practices. The reality of the Vietnam process (as your post right here points out) is that Vietnam is not the US and they don’t have the same standards as some wish they would. I am sure that there are agencies that have facilitators that have long standing very good relationships with key Vietnam officials. Does this mean they are corrupt or that those officials are allowing them to look the other way to get things done. I don’t think so (and to be honest is it really all that different than here in the US where we all know certain people get faster results because of who they are or who they know-it isn‘t fair, but it‘s not illegal or unethical either). Maybe they are getting faster results because they know the people to review their paperwork before other agencies paperwork, this may not be FAIR, but I don’t think its unethical. I really think most PAPs are doing the best they can. Most of us are not rich and we are just trying to be parents. There are people that have spent years and tens of thousands of dollars already to become parents unsuccessfully and they want is a baby. They aren’t buying a baby, they aren’t willingly going with an agency that is doing dirty deals under the table, they do have blinders on….but I know with my first IA I was clueless….all I could think about was my baby and I did whatever the agency said needed to be done to get her (ethics was not an issue at that time, but it would not have been on my radar anyway). I don’t think it’s fair to expect PAPs to walk away from an adoption once they are in-country when things don’t go as planned. No one knows what the plan is supposed to be and how do you know what’s bureaucracy and what’s shady dealings? At that point PAPs have spent $30,000, have flown half way around the world (literally), many have other children with them or have left their children back home, and they don’t know the country or customs. They aren’t turning a blind eye to things (in most cases, there may be some that do), they are in shock and they are overwhelmed and they finally have the baby in their arms and all they want to do is enjoy their time, get through the paperwork and get home so they can start their lives together as a family.
Anyway, I know this was long…..sorry. I just had one more thing I wanted to say…..I know people are hesitant to name unethical agencies (although if you are convinced enough to imply they are unethical there must be some proof behind those beliefs and if you are threatened with a law suit then let them know the proof you have…..if you have proof then you should win a law suit)….but I know people won’t want to do that, so how about people starting posting which agencies they are actually using that they think ARE ethical. I personally don’t think time lines can be the only way to judge an agency, I have said it before and I still believe it….fast doesn’t automatically=bad and slow doesn’t automatically=good.
Tracy
BRAVO, Tracy. Well said, and thank you!
Very, very well said Tracy!!
Tracy, I have to say that it feels to me like you are advocating in defense of ignorance. Sometimes it can be work to get good information but it isn’t nearly as hard if the person seeking the information comes into adoption without a bunch of predetermined expectations. If the person wants fast travel, a baby girl AYAP and a quick referral then that person is going to have a hell of a time finding an ethical agency because they will be looking for an agency through the lens of someone with their own needs and desires coming first, ethics coming second. I can’t even tell you how many emails a week I answer from PAPs asking for my opinion of which agency to go with who will provide them those things. If we step away from those expectations, it is amazing how many doors are opened and how much information is available when we are looking with our eyes open. I’m not saying its unethical or even wrong for a parent to want a daughter or an infant. But I believe if parents were encouraged to narrow down their choices to the ethical agencies first and foremost and THEN further narrow down the choices based on their own personal needs, choosing an agency would be a lot easier. It may mean sacrificing some portion of your own needs in the process but ethics are something that I believe we just can’t sacrifice.
I wholly disagree with you that fast timelines are not an indicator of unethical behavior. They are bad in a dozen different ways, they are bad for infants, they are bad for parents. You know who they are good for? Agencies! The faster an agency can get a family in and out, the more families they can push through. The math speaks for itself. If an agency is pushing referrals in 2 months and travel 1 month later and another agency is pushing referrals in 8 months and travel 4 months later, at the end of the year the first agency processing 4 families for every 1 family the other agency is processing. That’s 4x the income for the agency. That’s some pretty hefty financial incentive.
I know on the outside it looks like it MUST be good for parents and infants to travel quickly but the result is that almost every unethical agency and almost every NOID has been issued to parents who have received quick referrals & quick travel. This is no coincidence. Maybe it deserves a blog post of its own.
Regardless with this blog, groups like PEAR and AAR and Ethica and the hundreds of other blogs & email lists detailing out ethical concerns and issues in IA I am finding less and less tolerance for ignorance. I don’t disagree that it can be confusing and sometimes even overwhelming. It’s work to find the right agencies but it’s the first and best thing each of us has an obligation to do for our children.
I don’t think Tracy or anyone is advocating for ignorance. And I think suggesting that is unfair and dismisses the real concerns that many adoptive parents are beginning to have about this whole ethics crusade. I’ve also done a ton of research. I’m a journalist by trade, and I’ve been doing research and investigations for more years than I care to admit. My thinking has evolved in the last 13 or 14 months that I’ve been researching VN adoptions. For instance, after reading years worth of posts, I’ve come to believe that the infamous Adoption Agency Research group is an unreliable source of information and that the loudest mouths and biggest posters there seem to have personal vendettas. They whip others into a frenzy and soon people with no first-hand knowledge or experience are devolving into the pack attack mentality. I’m embarrassed that I relied more heavily than I should have on that group for information when I initially did my research. I failed to research the group itself! Most of the vocal opposition to a few agencies comes from the same couple people who have kept up their agenda for *years.* I’m not dismissing that group entirely, as some tidbits of information are helpful. But I certainly wouldn’t suggest that anyone use it as a reliable source.
It also seems apparent to me that some people are so blinded by their hate for certain agencies (for whatever reason) that they won’t even consider alternatives, and I’m sad to see that’s creeped into this forum. For instance, there have been detailed posts on Adoption Buzz about how referrals can be made quickly *and* ethically, yet because that information doesn’t conform to preconceived agendas, it’s also dismissed. Adoption Buzz has spelled out how referrals can be processed quickly. Fast referrals do not automatically mean unethical behavior, people. And on the flip side, slow referrals do not mean ethical behavior. I know one agency that has had one referral in a 12-month period and another agency that has made zero referrals in an even longer period. That doesn’t mean they’re trying to behave ethically and simply won’t take bribes. In fact, I would question how continuing to have a VN program under such circumstances — taking adoptive parents’ money — is ethical.
The rebuttal post here that defends posting the anonymous report disturbs me. At one point, you claim that this blog is just a little ol’ forum for people to post about their experiences, just a harmless, aw-shucks, it’s just my opinion forum. But then you turn around and make incredibly serious allegations of criminal activity — unfounded, anonymous allegations. And then when people question your sources and motivation, you deflect the criticism by accusing them of being a bunch of ignorant Americans who are so desperate to have their babies that they don’t care how they get the babies. That’s terribly insulting!
What I find more frightening is the number of people who seem to eagerly jump on the agency-bashing bandwagon, without any first-hand experience or knowledge themselves. It’s almost like it’s the new “in” thing in the VN adoption world.
I’m so glad to see some voices of reason beginning to speak out, despite fear and intimidation. I’m personally sorry about some comments and posts I’ve previously made out of ignorance.
I’m smart, professional and educated. I’ve done my homework. And just as I’m not knowingly going to be involved in unethical adoptions, I’m no longer going to be complicit in rumors and innuendo. I think doing otherwise does nothing more than hurt adoptive parents and international adoption. I debated posting about this because I know I’m probably going to get flak. I don’t care. It’s about time adoptive parents who have concerns about the rumor mongering stop being silent. We all want the same thing. But rumors and innuendo only contribute to an atmosphere of distrust and fear. They do not promote ethical adoptions.
Jennifer–
Of course the AAR group is one small piece of the puzzle when it comes to choosing an agency. Of course there are some very vocal posters and some may have a personal “vendetta” as you say. However, there are also adoptive parents with very valid concerns given what they have experienced.
I am not eager to jump on any agency-bashing wagon–it would be my sincere wish that all agencies operating in Vietnam were acting ethically. While I myself have not personally witnessed corruption, I have heard firsthand from those who have experienced or observed it in Vietnam.
I am smart, professional, and educated, and have also done my homework. The allegations may be anonymous–would you prefer that the bloggers who started this site expose themselves to a costly lawsuit by naming names? But I don’t know how you can say that the post is unfounded. Giving voice to those who have witnessed corruption is not rumor mongering.
Just to reiterate what S. said, we don’t allow guest bloggers to post rumor. We post their first hand accounts only.
I know for a fact that i have posted on several Yahoo Groups the agencies that I believe are ehtical based on personal experience. I am more than happy to discuss this with people on a personal basis.
I think that, as has been said on this site before, part of the problem is in the definition of an ethical agency, I know what I believe my standards are, and I think they fall in pretty closely with Nicki and Christina, but perhaps this would be another helpful post? What are VVAI’s standards of and ehtical agency and why. Then to go on to explain how to find out if certain agencies don’t fall into this catergory. Most of the time it is simply a matter of asking the question.
One of the things that I think about often is my son Khai, who we brought home from Vietnam 7 months ago. I think about the fact that we live in a global community and that the internet will hold many records of the state of adoptions surrounding his birth. I think about the fact that he might even be able to search the archive of AAR and APV for his name and find information about my opinions and actions surrounding the “ethics crusade” as Jennifer G. put it. This isn’t like how adoptions used to be, when records were sealed and there was no information to be had. What do I want him to find out? What do any of us want our children to find out?
This isn’t about us, and what we want, what we need. This is about our children. This is about our children being taken from their birth country, their culture, their families, their ethnic identities. This is about international adoption being the last best option for most of these children.
But what if it didn’t need to be? What if we as their parents aren’t really their last best option?
I know that for myself, I am willing to do anything that I can do to make sure that I am the last best option. How do I do that?
By working with agencies whose priorities aren’t the bottom line. By working with agencies whose focus isn’t even adoption, but family preservation and systemic change in the countries that they work in.
I know of a handful of agencies who do this- a handful.
I would just add that while it is good to gather information from all sources, that adoption buzz is authored by an agency representative. It is not unbiased.
And the only “pre-conceived agenda” that I have is that adoptions proceed ethically so that the program doesn’t shut down again leaving the children who truly need loving homes to grow up in orphanages.
The author of Adoption Buzz will be the first to point that he represents an agency but he is also clear on why he writes Adoption Buzz (thoroughly read the blog and you will see). One does not necessarily have to negate the other.
No, the very fact that he has bias and is honest about that does not make the information automatically false – but I do think that it means that if we use his blog as a source of information that we should take what is on that blog with a ton of grains of salt. I have read over every article on that blog and I know that I have personally read “information” on there that has worried me and I did not like.
I have thoroughly read Adoption Buzz. I wouldn’t have commented about it otherwise.
Nicki,
I am not advocating that PAPs bury their heads in the sand and then if things go wrong cry ignorance. What I am saying is UNETHICAL is a strong word and people should have proof before they start branding an agency as such. When I was considering changing from China to Vietnam I was working with Children’s Hope International (who I don’t think anyone thinks is unethical-probably just the opposite). This was back in May-Aug 06 I think. We wanted to adopt a boy under 12 months old and originally they said the wait time would be 2-3 months for referral and 5 months to travel. We were told the reason the time between referral and travel was so long was because a lot of paperwork had to be completed after you were matched with a child. So sounds like if this wasn’t a soft referral, it definitely wasn’t a hard one either by the 5 month time quote. So under the “Ethic Committee’s” guidelines this would be an unethical agency-fast referral times and soft referrals-or at the very least this should have raised red flags for me. The reason I say this is not to imply CHI is unethical, but to point out that the current standards using timeline that deem an agency “unethical’ only seem to apply to certain agencies.
While we were waiting to see what China’s new regulations would be the wait time went up to 6-8 months for a boy (which was a long wait at that time) and that was after your dossier was submitted-so they estimated it would be even longer by the time we got everything done. I was told by the agency director of CHI that they had received 25 of something like 50 children that had been referred to ANY agency at that point and therefore I should use CHI because they were one of the only ones that could get a fast referral-again a red flag by the current standards. The reason CHI has such a long time line now is not because they are ethical and going slow, it’s because they have HUNDREDS of families waiting to be matched with babies-I ADORE CHI by the way, I am only using them as an example of faulty reasoning.
I have a friend who is using LSS and has been logged in since March (her paperwork was ready long before that, but they were on hold for the March deadline) and so far this agency has given out ONE referral!! So I guess that makes them ethical huh, because if time is the indicator they have to be the most ethical agency around. Or could it be because they are new to the system and don’t know how to navigate the waters yet (or don’t have good contacts established in the country)??? Or maybe it could be that I think 2 of their orphanages have CHI working in them also and CHI is getting all the referrals because they are the established agency? My point here is you can’t base ethics on time lines., slow does not = ethical in ALL cases.
I think this whole ethics movement pits themselves against PAPs and doesn’t help them. Basically it says you are an evil enabler of a corrupt system if you go with any agency that doesn’t have a 3+ year wait. It doesn’t give the PAPs any credit for the research they do on the agencies (and I believe most people research agencies before handing them over $30,000 and entrust their future chances of parenthood to them), but if they dare go with an agency that people are hinting at being unethical (even though no one will come out and post which ones those agencies are and why) they are branded and ridiculed on the boards (and many times in the comment sections of their own personal blogs). I don’t think most people who are on this current bandwagon are “experts”. I think they are well meaning AP/PAPs who take what a few people are implying and running with it which is dangerous IMO. If people know an agency is acting unethically (which again should not be just because they can get a fast referral, they should have proof of falsification of documents, baby brokering, etc) then name the names. If they are so convinced they are right, then stand up and speak out for what you KNOW to be true. If they are willing to brand an agency unethical, then they should have proof or know where to get it and if they are sued then hopefully they will win because an agency will have a difficult time defending truly unethical behaviors. If all they have is rumor or second hand knowledge, then I don’t think they should be so quick to brand an agency unethical and vilify well meaning PAPs who are just trying to complete their families.
I’m not trying to defend all the agencies out there, but like I originally said, I can only truly guess at which ones are thought to be unethical because no one really comes right out and says it. And of those that are on the black list there is RARELY any real proof or even anything more substantial than innuendo about facilitators and practices. No one willingly wants to use an unethical agency and I think people should keep that in mind.
So many people are zealots on this subject and putting themselves out there as experts on the subject. I am not an inexperienced PAP, I am a mother who has completed my family 2 times through IA and have both of my children home. I am no more or less an expert than 90% of the people who are talking about this and my opinion is just as valid as theirs (in fact many are PAPs who cry unethical are still in the research or initiation phase of their first adoption and haven’t trully BTDT yet enough to ridicule others decision making with regard to agency selection IMO). I agree it’s an important subject (I wouldn’t be reading this board if I didn’t), but by people jumping all over someone who dares not agree with what is being said, you are just doing a disservice to the people who are trying to do the right thing but don’t know where to turn. They are just going to stop reading and asking questions and this doesn’t do anything to further this cause.
Tracy
Part of the adoption experience is being aware that it’s not always rosey. When my husband and I decided to adopt, we made the number one priority be that we chose a solid, ethical agency. It took us months to narrow them down, countless telephone and email interviews, checking and rechecking…until we finally took a leap of faith and made our decision. We feel absolutely confident that our agency follows the straight and narrow and has been open and honest with us. No BS, no fantasies, and able to produce documentation and contacts when we ask.
I also found it interesting that some of the people who commented about how rampant unethical behavior is in the adoption world in VN, are still continuing on with their adoptions. I assume this means that that they are 100% sure that their chosen agencies are clean.
I have to say that I do think that no matter what you ‘think’ the response may or may not be from the US Embassy, the kind of behavior which was posted needs to be reported. If you are absolutely certain that the sources are reliable, then report it. Don’t *not* do it because you assume nothing will be done. We all have a responsibility to speak up to the appropriate authorities if we think something is amiss.
Tracy,
I think you make some very valid points. I don’t think anyone here is claiming to be an expert, but to provide a forum for these discussions. And yes, I get that it is frustrating that people won’t name agencies on lists or groups like this one. I get that most adoptive parents want to do the right thing.
I know things about agencies that I absolutely believe to be true, from various sources including PAPs, APs, and even an agency director whose opinion I highly respect, who will not under any circumstances participate in corruption. Did I personally experience these things? NO. So maybe I should just keep quiet. But that is pretty tough.
When I first learned about corruption in Vietnamese adoption, I was blissfully innocent. I thought perhaps some bribes would be paid to “stay in the good graces” of various officials. I never would have imagined mothers being recruited to sell their babies, parents being accused of abuse so their babies could be taken from them and placed for adoption, APs being asked to lie to the embassy about various significant aspects of their adoptions. It is extremely difficult to just sit on my hands during these discussions.
About hard vs. soft referrals–yes, clearly when in the process a referral is given would affect the timeline. And it may not be unethical to give soft referrals. But given the recent events, and the parents who have lost referrals as a result and had to go home and explain to their other children that the baby whose picture they had seen wouldn’t be coming home, I am very glad not to be in a situation where that could happen.
As far as being 100% certain my own agency is clean, and that my daughter is truly an orphan, yes, I am 100% certain. We came very close to switching countries because of these concerns, and if I weren’t certain, we wouldn’t be adopting from Vietnam.
I want to apologize about the “lalala” comment I made on my other post. I realize that was disrespectful, and certainly not all PAPs are choosing to ignore facts. But I recently had two experiences, where the PAPs choosing an agency denied what was clear, in black and white (this wasn’t a case of innuendo or rumor or anything else) and decided they would abandon their ethics to bring babies home quickly. They don’t represent all PAPs and it isn’t fair to generalize.
Tracy,
What a wonderful post, it summed up my thoughts and feelings beautifully. I to have completed my family through IA with 3 children who are now all home, but am made to feel as if my opinions and thoughts have no meaning or validity because they differ from some of these unofficial “experts”.
You know, I really resent the tone of “experts” in quotes. I seem to be one of the only ones commenting here so obviously I am one of the people that is directed at. I have never claimed to be an expert. I have spent the past year and a half reading every Vietnam adoption blog I could find start to finish, have read everything I can find on any site related to Vietnam adoption, and have made many friends in the Vietnam adoption community. I have read extensively about the circumstances that led to Vietnam shutting down before and about the situation in Cambodia. Does that make me more of an expert than others who have also researched and are further in the process than I am? No. Obviously there are lots of different experiences and opinions out there–but I know what I know. And reading about the parents who just had to leave one of their babies behind in Vietnam after spending two weeks loving and nurturing that baby, and the older brother heartbroken chasing the car down the street as the baby was driven away, was enough to make me pray that no family has to face that situation again, and that no child is left unadoptable due to corruption. That is my motivation in addressing these issues.
There are some really good points being made on both sides of the conversation. I appreciate views from both sides, however, I think that we need to stay away from trying to accuse people’s voices of being invalid – for any reason, especially whether they are a AP or PAP – as it is only hurting what could be a very productive conversation. We are ALL here because of the importance of the subject of ethics in Viet Nam adoptions – let’s keep it going with respect.
Slightly Off Topic Question:
Can anyone out there tell me why so many PAP’s are in such a hurry, anyway? It seems so many PAP’s need their referrals in less than 12 months. Listen, I am 44 years old and this will be my first child. If anyone understands how hard it is to wait, it’s me! But let’s face it – pregnancy takes 9 months, not to mention a few months of trying if you’re not lucky right away. (Not even including the years of trying for others with fertility issues). Why is it so hard to wait another 6 months or even a year? We are adopting a child in need, not buying a car, right? Do we really expect that newborn infants are just going to appear when we want them to?
We are using our long wait-for-referral and wait-for-travel time to get the house ready; save money; stock the freezer with pre-made dinners; enjoy our last chances to sleep late on weekends. Why the hurry?? If more PAP’s could just sit back and accept that adoption is not a race to the finish line, perhaps the pressure on agencies to complete adoptions quickly could abate.
Forgive me for getting off-topic, but I do think that the demand for fast adoptions may be as harmful to the process as the demand for girls. I’d love to know how we can get more PAP’s to understand the need for patience and a respect for the process taking as long as it needs to. It seems that so many lose sight of the fact that they are adopting orphans, not just “getting a baby” as fast as possible.
I totally agree with Tracey and Jennifer G….I am new to this adoptive process and with whatever board I comment on (esp. the Adoption Agency Reseach board) the people are rude and are so secretive about each agency but then you are told that you are “evil” if you particpate in an unethical agency. Listen, the bottom line is that if you don’t want to step up to the plate and list all of the “unethical” agencies out there AT least list the ones that are considered “ethical”. Ever since I have started to do research all I have encountered is the negative side of adoption. You don’t think that this kind of unethical behavior doesn’t go on here in the US? It’s been going on everywhere since adoptions became legal. Don’t fool yourself!. It makes me so angry. My motive for adopting an infant is to give an baby a good home and if that isn’t good enough along with my house being mortgaged to the hilt, then that’s too bad. There have been times that I thought I should bow out and not particpate in adoption because the adoption community is not a friendly one.
This is my dream and all I can do is make the best decision I can. I REFUSE to feel guilty about it. So either speak up about the agencies or keep your negativity to your self! And for those who say this is ignorance you are wrong. We are paying for a child people…think about it.
This is an excellent post. I’ve read these horror stories of mother’s being paid thousands of dollars, etc. When you look at some of them logically, they don’t make sense as there would be no profit in it as the adopting family isn’t paying as much in fees as is purportedly being paid on the other end. Lots of stories get going when issues like these are raised, many of which are false.
As stated above, there has been corruption and unethical behavior in adoption since it’s inception. It hasn’t been made illegal in the US because of the few who look to profit in an unethical/illegal manner. Why it needs to be an all or nothing solution makes no sense. There are many legitimately adoptable babies in orphanges in Vietnam who will not get homes if adoptions are discontinued. Reformation and stable regulations are important, but discontinuing adoptions is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Ellen,
That was a good post and I do agree with you. I have also often wondered if the fact that so many people request baby girls as oposed to boys or not specifying a gender at all may contribute to some corruption? I do *not* mean this in an offensive manner but let’s be honest: the demand for baby girls is incredibly high. Couldn’t this lead to shaky practices?
Jill,
It is generally accepted that if the names of agencies are not shared on a list or site or whatever in a negative way, than it is not appropriate to share positive agency stories naming agencies either. That doesn’t mean that you can’t find ethical agencies or that people don’t share information in private e-mails or on sites where it is permitted by the owners to name names. It shouldn’t take long at all to figure out which are the ethical agencies–unfortunately many are not willing to wait. I don’t even know where to begin to address your statement “We are paying for a child people.”
Truth-telling is not negativity.
Rachel at Are We There Yet also has an experienced POV on these issues in her post from 6/28/07. In her words…
“Everything every agency does affects not only their program and their clients, but the entire Vietnam program. Think I’m wrong? It happened to Vietnam before. Not every agency was unethical. Not every facilitator was unethical. Yet it all shut down. It happened in Cambodia. Not all agencies were acting unethically and not all facilitators were stealing children, yet the US shut everything down…I’ll be blunt…get your head out of the sand. We are ALL responsible for keeping the program going. No one wants to see it shut down. Especially not the hundreds of PAP’s (prospective adoptive parents) who have shelled out a lot of time and energy to finally gain their place on the waiting lists. …Endless amounts of baby girls spewing from orphanage doors is a huge red flag to me. Especially when these agencies are all working in the same few provinces. If I sound overly touchy about this situation it’s because I am. We were right in the midst of the Cambodia shut down. The US suspended adoption as we were waiting to travel. You don’t get held up in a limbo adoption system and come out with a blase attitude about how far reaching unethical behavior can be.”
Tracy,
Thanks for your explanation of your earlier post. I am with “X Agency”, so I appreciated your using them and “Y Agency” as your examples. However, I think what happens is that people with clearly unethical agencies (there are a few out there that most of us agree are a bit shady) read posts like yours and think, “Yea, fast referral times aren’t always a sign of ethical-ness; therefore my fast-referring agency must be OK.” So while it is not always a sign of unethical-ness, it sometimes is. What I’m afraid of is that posts that insist that not all agencies are bad will let PAPs feel off the hook about investigating harder.
Although I think most of us (especially readers of this site) have done quite a bit of research and know more about this that we ever thought we would, there is a fairly substantial number of VN PAPs (I’ve met dozens myself) who prefer ignorance. And to back up that ignorance, they use posts like yours to justify that their agency CAN’T be unethical.
Unfortunately I think there’s more problems on the side of PAPs trying to convince themselves that a shady agency is OK than on the other side (people needlessly getting nervous about agencies that are probably fine). I personally have emailed hundreds of people who asked about “Z Agency” to tell them that I was lied to about who their in-country facilitator is. I didn’t elaborate or call them unethical, just shared that they admitted to me that they did not initially tell me about all of their in-country staff. And when one of their references did, they admitted that had not mentioned her, in part because she’s controversial.
Not one PAP I sent this info to replied with “Thanks, I’ll stay away from them.”
While we all need to take personal responsibility, it is the government’s job to oversee who is ethical and who is not. I would not blame the PAPs–blame the officials who allow them to continue to facilitate adoptions.
Maybe agencies need to step up a bit and no longer allow PAPs to specify gender or age. What would happen if the “chooseables” were more broad, say, either gender 0-3, 3-6, 6-9 etc? I would be surprised whole HBG AYAP ASAP phenomenon is *not* facilitating corruption. Supply and demand, right?
I feel like the same PAPs who put their head in the sand during discussions about gender selection (“It’s MY family – you have NO RIGHT to judge what WE NEED”) are the same who turn a blind eye to NOIDs, are the same who tell their kids it doesn’t matter, they are American now… Yep, I’m painting with a pretty wide brush there. Whatever, I saw someone post on one of the big yahoo groups about which agency could “obtain” a baby girl the fastest. Yep, obtain. Awesome.
In the article about the NOIDS, it was mentioned that some of the unethical things were brought to the US Embasssy and nothing was done. So we as PAP’s are responsible for the while adoption system? I agree with going with an ethical agency but unless someone wants to spill the beans on who these agencies are then things will never change. Why do we have PM each other, why can’t we talk in the open? Everything is so secretive and hush-hush. And we all know what happens when people keep secrets. Please tell me where to find these websites that have listed all of the “good” agencies and I will be there in a second.
I can’t control all of the “bad” people in this world and I’m not opposed to making things right but once again unless we stand up united and fight then we will still be in the dark.
Don’t you think I’m on a waiting list? I NEVER though in my wildest dreams that opening my heart to another little human being would bring this type of stress and heartache. But bad things happen…look at the war going on now or all of the wars. It’s sad but it still goes on and so will the bad agencies and the people that help them unless we stand united and form a plan against these types of people. Making Pap’s paranoid and depressed is not the way to go.
As far as for wanting a baby girl, has anyone ever thought about a family that may already have a boy(s) and wants a girl to balance out her family? That is my case and I will not apologize for it. And, ooh, I would like an infant too. Man, I’m just so evil.
Jill, The reason why agencies are not named on boards with negative comments is that there have been lawsuits. The owner of the APV board was sued by an agency a few years ago simply because the board allowed negative comments to be made about that agency -she herself had not even posted the comments in question. I think all of us would prefer to be able to speak openly in public, but your question should really be directed back to those agencies that have sued: what are they afraid of? Some agencies have a gag clause in their contracts, too – it’s a red flag to look for when choosing an agency. There are also cases of APs being sued by an agency for speaking out post-adoption.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect a volunteer who starts a board or website to take on the possible burden of legal action, so it’s best to respect the need for discretion in these matters.
You can legally sent private emails to those that request a list of agencies you would recommend not working with. There is nothing wrong with this legally.
I have long LONG had a list of agencies I consider to be ethical on my own personal blog. Becuase my list is MY list, it is not listed here nor is it a reflection of VVAI as a whole. But it’s been around for a very long time and I update it when I need to.
Tracy – I wanted to respond to a few things you said in your last comment.
First of all I completely agree that an agency moving slowly is not necessarily ethical. I can think of a few in particular. What I said was that agencies moving quickly is a bad thing and I stand by that. If CHI is referring out babies who are not paper ready, they would be off my own list faster than you can blink. I don’t necessarily infer that from what you said. There IS a lot of “paperwork” that needs to happen between referral and travel. Or rather the paperwork has to travel through many routes to get final approval.
Second, I think it’s dangerous to continue using such extremes when we discuss ethics. I think there is a big difference between a 3+ year wait and a 6-12 month wait. Both can be had ethically. What can’t be had ethically, in my opinion, is an instant referral of a healthy baby (girl OR boy right now) AYAP. Similarly I don’t think anyone is suggesting that parents must wait a year after referral for ethical travel to happen but a standard 3-4 month wait is totally reasonable. What is not reasonable, in my opinion, is to whine that you have not gotten TA after 3 weeks which I have read countlessly on blogs. But agencies have conditions some families to expect this as the norm.
Third, again it may come down to personal definition of unethical behavior but the behaviors you described are ILLEGAL, not just unethical. They are reason for denial of visa and frankly, jail time if caught. Someone suggested we write a post about what exactly ethical means and it is a great topic to tackle.
Jill,
I don’t think anyone is implying that people who chose a gender or an infant are ‘evil’, but I think because the fact that soooooo many people request girls it needs to be considered as something that may encourage corrupt behavior to meet the ‘demand’. I don’t buy the whole ‘balancing out the family’ argument. The gender of biological children are not requested so why should an adoptive child’s be? Age- yes, I absolutely agree that requesting a rough age bracket is reasonable, but the gender issue is tricky. If I had been able to carry a child to term successfully I would not have been able to choose. Why should I now? A baby is a baby is a baby.
Not necessarily. I’m a single woman and would probably make a better mother to a daughter than to a son. It not written in stone, but I’d prefer to adopt a girl. And people can select what gender they get biologically–the doctor and his wife down the street have that system down pat.
Isabella,
I have two bio boys ages 8 & 2 years of age. If I got pregnant again chances are that it would be a boy and of course, that would be okay along as he would be healthy. But I chose to adopt a baby girl…what in the world is wrong with wanting a little girl? The argument is valid. If I didn’t have any kids then I would understand completely about the gender selection. If I had two girls then I would be requesting to adopt a baby boy.
BTW, you can choose the sex of your baby if you want to go through IVF but that’s not for me. I’m choosing to help an orphan and requesting the sex is not a bad thing. I understand what you are saying about the number of girls that are being requested and this should raise a red flag. That is what we should be focusing on and not if a family wants to balance out with different sex.
Isn’t it funny, though, that we never see people defending their choice of a boy? It’s a riot, an absolute scream, right? 😐 Just think for a moment about how gender selection can influence corruption. I could never be part of that. I could never con myself into thinking that my personal actions are not affecting other PAPs or the program in general.
I don’t think so many of us would be against gender selection if it naturally evened out between boys and girls, but it DOESN’T, and that’s what we must question.
And no, just because someone is adopting, I personally believe that does NOT give you the right to choose the gender of your child. Is adoption about finding homes for children, or finding babies for Americans?
Feel free to disagree with me, but I think that we have a responsibility to our children, to the program, to the country of Vietnam not to act in a way that could cause the program to implode. I don’t want ANY doubt hanging over my head – for the rest of my freaking life! – that something I *chose* would have such severe and negative repurcussions.
I just found this website today. I applaud what the authors are trying to do here.
I am a two-time vet of the Cambodian situation and what I am reading here – well, it really brings back the memories and not in a good way. It all started with rumor there, too, for years mostly because of fear. So many of us with completed adoptions knew things weren’t right – and I maintain to this day that things weren’t right across the board in Cambodia; the unethical behavior was intrinsic to the way the entire system was established – and yet we just told our stories among ourselves. We were so afraid of losing our children – we didn’t speak up loudly, just spoke in whispers. The few that did try to speak up were shouted down with “where’s your proof?” Then it was all deflected with every story being declared a planted story by a competing agency. That was BS, too. NO ONE wanted to step out with the proof because the proof jeopardized their claim to their kids.
Adoption is a one-time act that effects our children, their birthfamilies, and our families for the rest of our lives. No one wants to have to say the things I need to say to my kids about the way they joined our family. I’m frankly glad to see an “ethics crusade” – it’s about damn time.
I did my homework – the best the largely unregulated system and the secrecy would allow. I was naive the first time. The second time I thought I was really smart, but when someone on the other side of the world lies to you, it’s pretty hard to uncover those lies.
Oh Sarah..once again the PAP’s have taken the fall and are the bad guys. I will give you a hint Sarah….search your heart and your intentions and if you find yourself willing to be a mother to baby girl/boy out of love, then let go of the guilt.
If you think the program is going to implode then DO something about it..form a coalition, write your Senator/Congress/President of the US. This forum is well-needed but unless someone does something we all can write all we want and NOTHING will change.
Honestly, I don’t know what to do …how about someone throw out ideas instead of accusing each other of bad intentions?
Why shouldn’t some of the blame lie with PAPs? There is so terribly little we can control in this process. Why not take control of our adoptions in the tiniest avenue we can – ensuring that every choice we make is one that will not support corruption?
As long as agencies give PAPs a choice of gender, then PAPs will continue to choose. I do not see how “blame” can be placed on PAPs just because they prefer a boy or a girl. Interestingly, since the Vietnam program reopened, many agencies that began by allowing gender choice do not any longer. They recognized the imbalance and modifed their rules in order to best serve the children. (These seem to be the long-standing, large agencies.)
Jill,
Most people who go through IVF are doing so to get pregnant first and foremost, because they are unable to without the procedure. I promise you it’s not to choose a gender. We attempted it a few times and that discussion or option never came up.
I find it interesting that the people adopting who tend to get very defensive about their right to choose the gender of their child tend to be those who already have biological children. You admit that the number of girls requested is a ‘red flag’, but yet you aren’t changing your request. Maybe you already have a referral (in that case, congrats) or your application has been submitted.
Sarah, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I absolutely believe that if the demand for baby girls continues at the rate it currently is, it *will* have an effect- for all we know it already has.
In many countries (the one where I live in fact-I’m american but live abroad), adoptive parents are not allowed to choose gender. In fact, most people are shocked at the idea that it is even an option at all.
Aside from the excuse to ‘balance out a family”, why is it that baby girls are requested so much more than boys?
Isabella,
Do you have any children? If not, then you do not speak for me or anyone else that has biological children. This is why you don’t “understand” the whole family balancing thing as you call it. FYI, I saw a report that there is a procedure out there for gender selection and it was IVF.
Why don’t you switch to an Domestic adoption so you won’t have to feel so guilt ridden about the all of the issues that surround International Adoption.
You can argue until the cows come home, you will not persuade me to change what I think is best for MY family. MY life, MY BIOLOGICAL children and MY CHOICE of choosing a gender for MY adoption.
I will not be leaving my more replies on this board because NOT ONE PERSON that has posted has yet to come up with any type of solution to all of the problems that were discussed. All you want to do is push your opinion to the forefront and have the satisfaction that you are right. Talk about doing justice to the children of Vietnam…..maybe you could donate your last penny to the orphanages and maybe, just maybe you will feel better. If you can not come up with anything postive to say about the children of Vietnam, please keep it yourself!!
Jill,
Based on the angry and defensive tone in your response I apologize if I offended or upset you, that was not my intention.
I was expressing my opinion as everyone clearly has in this string and do not presume to be ‘right’. Including you, none of us who have posted have come up with any concrete ideas as to how to deal with the problems. Some good idea here and there, but overall, none of us have done a supreme job.
Don’t assume to know how I feel, and I don’t recall saying anything negative about the children of VN. I will be a parent to one soon enough and I have nothing but feelings of respect for that country and its people because of it. I don’t feel any guilt in regard to our adoption, nor did I say anything about feeling guilty. I trust our agency and feel confident that we did the best research we could.
Your tone in challenging me as to whether or not I have children and my lack of ‘understanding’ was very cold. To answer your question: yes, I had a biological child. She was stillborn.
I wish you the best in your adoption.
I read all of these disagreements about asking for a certain sex and wanted to share my story. We had three birth children and felt compelled to adopt to give a child a home and complete our family. We did not request a certain sex and recieved a beautiful baby boy from Korea. My son was lonely for someone” just like him” so we adopted another little boy from Korea. This little boy had some special needs. As my son reached 7 years old and we were able to see that his needs were being addressed and he would have an excellent future we decided we wanted to adopt one more time. This time we were willing to take an older child but wanted an Asian girl. An Asian child because we knew from experience that it makes it easier if there are children just like them in the family and a girl because my youngest son wanted to be the youngest boy in the family. We started the procedure in May for Vietnam and are waiting for a referral. After such easy adoptions from Korea, it has been very difficult to deal with the uncertainty of Vietnam which we naively went into. After adopting a special needs child and now waiting for an older child, do people really judge us just because we have asked for a girl?