Vietnam will cancel baby-adoption agreement with U.S.
Vietnam will end a baby-adoption agreement with the United States after being accused of allowing corruption and baby-selling, government officials said Monday.
The agreement was being considered for renewal but the two sides remained far apart over revisions, said Vu Duc Long, director of Vietnam’s International Adoption Agency. The agreement is due to expire Sept. 1.
The decision was made after the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi released a report earlier this month alleging pervasive corruption and baby-selling in Vietnam’s adoption system.
…
In a letter sent to the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi on April 25, Vietnam said it will stop taking adoption applications from American families after July 1, although it will continue to process applications of families matched with babies before July 1.
68 Responses
What’s your take on the discrepancy between the Embassy report that states Vietnam will allow adoptions to continue for families with referrals by Sept. 1 and the news article that states the cut off for referrals is July1. Any thoughts or insight? Thanks.
Sue, I haven’t been able to analyze all of this carefully (personal life is crazy busy right now) but I believe this announcement came after the other… it appears Vietnam responded to the embassy’s statement by setting their own cut off date and taking the MOU off the table altogether.
Christina,
That was my take too. It seemed like an angry response to the the Report by the Embassy.
Brenda
But the Embassy statement said the July 1 dossier date and the September 1 referral date were given to the US by VN in a letter dated 4/25.
So I thought the dates in the Embassy statement were VN’s dates, not the US’s dates and I don’t know why VN would change them.
Unless…VN sent that letter and then saw the report and changed its mind.
FWIW. I’m guessing just like everyone else…
🙁
I think it’s a mistake/typo in the news story.
I think it is a typo. At least that is what my agency told us.
AP refers to the letter which the embassy received on Friday, which I believe is the same letter which led to the embassy announcement last Friday. There would not have been two such letters on the same day.
Hope so anyway!!
/L
PAP
P.S. When I find out if it is a typo, AP management will be getting a strongly worded letter from me – nothing like messing with our already fragile emotions!
I think it’s a mistake in the report too. I’d be surprised if they just changed the date 3 days after releasing a statement. Gosh I feel for the people awaiting referrals. I think those with dossiers in and referrals will be okay, but my heart breaks for those waiting. My heart really hurts for all those children who need families.
Well and technically it is not 3 days after the statement because the AP article references the letter received by the Embassy on April 25th. I’m hoping they just didn’t understand the terms dossiers, match, referral,etc.. it can be confusing. I would be more concerned if AP sited a new letter dated something other than the 25th….
Fingers crossed!!!!!
/L
PSP
My agency told us they contacted DIA and Sept 1st is the correct date for referrals. It was reported wrong in the news.
I honestly wish it were a typo. I truly think the Vietnamese are reacting to the report on irregularities. However, this article does say match, not referral. So, does that mean if you are matched and still haven’t received an official referral by July 1st you will be okay?
I think the point is being missed here. The Vietnamese are stopping the adoptions. They don’t seem to mention anything about renegotiations or wanting to continue to work with the US in the future.
It would seem to me that the Vietnamese are done with US adoptions in their country…and it doesn’t seem to be short sighted.
That is the issue here. A big one. I know agencies are still saying they believe the MOU will be renegotiated eventually, I don’t think that will happen for a long while; if ever, especially after this statement.
I wish for those waiting for referrals etc the best result….but typo no typo there is more to this then just that.
You are absolutely right. I know that for PAPs, the more emergent point is whether or not they will be able to complete adoptions. I sympathize. But the future of the program is at stake.
I sincerely hope that Long is just extremely angry and embarrassed and trying to save face but that eventually he will understand the need for true ethics reform, he will encourage pursuit of Hague accreditation and the need for an MOU will be inconsequential.
I don’t think that point is necessarily being missed – for me, I’ve long suspected/known that there would be no MOU beyond September 1st and I’m quite surprised that some agencies are saying that it would be renegotiated at some point.
So for me and probably for others, the end of adoptions in VN isn’t necessarily news – hence the focus on the discrepancy in dates.
I don’t believe it is a typo, from the wording of this BBC article (which wasn’t posted off the AP wire):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7371862.stm
There are just so many issues with all of this – it is more than an earlier date cutoff. I am truly sorry to those of you who are waiting and who may be affected by the date – that is just one more thing that you do not need at all.
I’m so, so, sorry.
hmmm….the BBC article is interesting because it says “adoption applications”..
Vietnam said it would stop accepting adoption applications after 1 July…
What does that mean? Dossiers or referrals? I’m not sure what an adoption application is technically, anybody know?
Hang in there everybody, the Embassy is opening now (or shortly) and maybe they will make another announcement. Would sure be nice to know the reality of the situation!!!
This is all incredibly sad on so many levels regardless of what the dates are. I’m just sick!
/L
PAP
Adoption applications = dossiers.
This whole thing smells funny to me. I am sorry but it more and more seems there is some cover up going on , more than likelyon both sides. It all just corresponds to much to us embassy getting so far behind in stuff that this was their way to “fix” the problem. Seems it has all backfired. Sory but I just do not trust our government, they have a history of doingthings likes this and we already know from first hand experiences they refused ot follow Vietnamese requests in regards to having escorts etc. I mean that would be what we would require of a foreignentity investigating in our country why should we be any different in another country. This whole mess just stunks to me and smells fishy. Yeah corruption is probably happening somewhat in Voietnam but aren’t we the pot calling the kettle black!! maybe we should address some of our own corruption issues first.
Sorry had to vent over all of this and I hope it all truely works out for families caught in limbo.
BB
We may never know the truth, but this situation does smell fishy. Here’s a quote from a January news article, Couples ally to publicize foreign adoption plights, International dispute holds up some visas:
“”It’s appalling,” said lawyer Lynda Zengerle, who heads the immigration division of the law firm Steptoe and Johnson in Washington, D.C. “This is the worst situation I’ve seen, and I have been doing this a long time.”
“Zengerle blamed the roadblock on two factors: first, bureaucratic wrangles between the U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which is part of the Department of Homeland Security; and second, a souring of relations between the U.S. and Vietnamese governments.”
Did you also know that Vietnam is sitting on the UN Security Council as a non-permanent member, term expiring 2009? Did Vietnam tick the US off by criticizing US policy or voting against the US? What’s the “souring of relations” mentioned in this article?
There’s a story here if only there were a true investigative journalist looking for the truth.
I don’t understand that was a typo or AP wanted families and adoption situation became mess and more complicated.
My agency had a talk with Mr. Long, DIA and he confirmed:
1- DIA allows dossiers log in till July 1, 2008;
2- Families with Official referral (not soft referral or unofficial “match”) before September 1, 2008 are processed to complete;
3- DIA doesn’t cancel nor stop the baby adoption agreement because of Embassy’s report. The info. (1) and (2) was advised by DIA to Embassy 1 day before the Embassy report posted; and
4- VN side urges to accede the Hague convention.
Hope that helps!
Emma.
I think something else we need to ask ourselves in relation to “all of the corruption” is do we really believe that we are the only country that cares? Do we really think all the other countries that have adoption relations with Vietnam are allowing it? Or maybe they are not smart enough to see it? Or maybe, just maybe, it is not as rampant as people make it out to be. Does it happen? Well, corrupt things happen everywhere so I am sure it does.. But I am not so convinced that it is in the majority of cases. I suppose it does not matter, the agreement is coming to an end and those of us in process are just hoping to get our children before it does. It is really sad.
F – you wrote, “Did you also know that Vietnam is sitting on the UN Security Council as a non-permanent member, term expiring 2009? Did Vietnam tick the US off by criticizing US policy or voting against the US?” You also mentioned “there’s a story here if only there were a true investigative journalist looking for the truth.”
Time to remove the tin foil hat and look objectively at the situation. Look….I feel badly for all the PAPs caught up in this mess (and I feel badly for many other parties in this mess). But if you think the U.S. made up stories about corruption in Vietnamese adoption b/c Viet Nam “ticked off” the U.S. by criticizing U.S. policy….then the only investigative journalism of interest is a story on why some PAPs will do ANYTHING to avoid the truth about why Viet Nam is shutting down adoptions to the U.S. Viet Nam has always taken positions that oppose (or even hurt) U.S. interests. Nothing new there. Obviously the U.S. is not happy watching corrupt Vietnamese bureaucrats line their pockets at the expense of children, their identities and their birth families. And letting countless other players like “orphanage directors” do the same.
Everyone pressured the U.S. embassy to reveal EXACTLY what the problem is, and that is what the Embassy finally did. And it’s not pretty. And I think the Embassy tried its damndest to work with the Vietnamese to fix the problem instead of airing Vietnamese dirty laundry. The only one “ticked off” as you say (as between governments that is) is Viet Nam because its nasty little child trafficking activities (or complicity therewith) has been exposed. Now it is stuck exporting orphans to Spain and France, which are more likely to rubber stamp a child’s dossier as opposed to investigate it….and these countries pay less. This is a sad state of affairs but is no surprise since we’re talking about a country with a corruption ranking on par with Libya, Nigeria and Pakistan.
While I feel bad for children caught up in this mess, right now I am feeling saddest for American PAPs. All they wanted was to adopt a child and were willing to do anything at all to help out their future child’s country, orphanage, etc. And they embraced their child’s future country, spent countless hours finding out about Vietnamese culture and truly coming to love the country they were adopting from. What did they get in return for their love, patience and donations? Their hopes and dreams crushed just so greedy little bureaucrats could flash some bling. Shame on you Viet Nam and all the other players that contributed to this mess.
I agree, M. On Friday when everyone was “shocked” at the embassy report, I predicted that some PAPs would still want to keep their heads in the sand. Over the weekend, so many people have said, “We want details! Tell us more about this corruption.” But whenever anybody tries to, they get shot down.
Believe me, I have a healthy mistrust of government as well (ours and others), but there have been reports from too many people (the embassy, agencies, PAPs, APs) to deny this anymore. While I’m sad about this mess, I’m grateful it’s coming out. It’s only when it’s in the open air that it can finally begin to get cleaned up. Of course, that’s what everyone thought during the last shut down. So sad all around.
Heidi, you wrote, “Over the weekend, so many people have said, ‘We want details! Tell us more about this corruption.’ But whenever anybody tries to, they get shot down.”
That’s b/c oftentimes the question,
“What is the corruption you say is happening?’
is really just a rhetorical question. In reality, the questioner means this: “All this talk about corruption but I think it’s really something else at work here and I don’t buy these allegations of corruption.” Familiar pattern:
1. Rhetorical question about corruption asked;
2. It is answered with specific instances of corruption;
3. Answer is criticized as not “detailed” enough;
4. Details are given;
5. Response is, “Well, that corruption stuff is probably the rare case.”
6. A detailed explanation shows the corruption is not a rare case and includes various players, provinces and….even assistance by the Vietnamese government with impeding investigations.
7. Final response: Well, the baby supply should keep coming b/c the kids are better off anyway over here. This last response is not often aired publicly but a lot of people think this way deep down
Some PAPs stop at number 2 above and accept that corruption exists and try to make their own adoption journeys ethical as best they can. Others bicker themselves down to number 7. Not that anything we as PAPs say will make a difference at this point. Adoptions will cease and some Americans will blame the American Government and there’s nothing you can say to change their minds.
The announcement is really unfortunate news for all families involved. This is a decision affecting 42 licensed adoption agencies in VietNam.
A few facts:
The staffing in Hanoi was greatly understaffed to begin with when the process started. In 8 months for 2007, the number of approved agencies ramped up from 3-4 to 25-28 agencies. This grew to 42 as of April 2008. If things are questionable, the agencies should be at risk of losing their license.
It’s a simple management problem and US Government failed miserably at it. Too many agencies means not everything will be held to a high standard and not everyone doing the same thing. Too many adoptions backlogged means a loss of enforcement per case and per agency against growing mountain of paperwork that won’t go away.
Quietly, the control over the adoption process was reduced down from an agency level to a case-by-case basis. The media decides to focus on a small percent of questionable adoption practices become front page media news. Granted, of nearly 1800-2000 adoptions done since adoptions were resumed, no one expects things to be perfect or corruption free for every case. The US has done an amazing job but yet they’re overburdened and overworked. A lot of successes have been made with the VietNam adoption process and the media decides to ignore them.
There are far more serious problems in other countries and this is a perfect example of the US Government creating a mess of their own and making it so complicated (I600 changes, DNA testing, etc). It is an embarrassing situation for the United States. The media is simply giving the United States a ‘free excuse pass’ for their failures of letting things get out of hand with too many agencies and too many adoption cases.
It would be far better to reduce the list of agencies by 33-50% to those with a proven track record and US Govt has confidence in and weed the questionable agencies out. Shutting down all 42 agencies is a worst case scenario by punishing the ones with a successful track record, the ones who can make a difference in turning this situation from an unmanageable one to manageable, streamlined, and ethical one.
It’s unfortunate that many good families are involved. Adoptions can be a win/win for US & VietNam. It does not have to end this way. This is just another example of US losing leadership and respect globally. It ends up hurting families here in the United States and organizations supporting orphanages and making positive contributions in VietNam.
You are absolutely right that the number of licensed agencies very well played a part in all of this. Very very early on in licensing, discussions took place about whether caps on licenses would take place and at what number. The number 20 was thrown around a lot.
But lets make it perfectly clear that ASPs received their license to operate in Vietnam from the Vietnam government, not the US government. The control over the numbers of ASPs allowed to be licensed was within the control of the Vietnam government, not the US government. The standards for licensure were controlled by the VN government. The revocation of licensure was controlled by VN government.
The area of government that controls visa processing has no control over state adoption agency licensing or VN ASP licensing. They can not revoke state adoption agency licenses, they have no authority to investigate adoption agencies. They can investigate orphan petitions, that’s all.
nicki,
Nice summary. “The area of government that controls visa processing (can only) investigate orphan petitions, that’s all.”
Somewhere there is a disconnect. The move to licensing was good but it’s not done jointly so that the real power in revoking licensing can develop properly and respectfully. The ‘investigations’ by the US government who controls visa processing are often a witch hunt leaving a bad taste and impression of the United States in the VietNam community.
So, there you have it… the real friction of bad tension and relations comes down to one agency (visa processing) and butting heads with the licensing agencies with their observations and not able to handle the increasing caseload. They’re trying to do their job and already hate it because they’re in a damned if they do, damned if they don’t scenario. This job is not one I’d wish on anyone. It is disruptive how this ‘investigative power’ is being used in the very final stages of an adoption (95-99% complete) (trying to play referee in a game that has already been decided). There has to be a better way all parties involved can get along and continuously improve the process, smoother visa processing, than destroy it in a shorter amount of time than it was previously suspended for. That said, the US visa processing unit was still unprepared staffing wise when China was tightening their adoption restrictions. It triggers a chain of reactive responses and things getting out of hand. Governments are like dinosaurs, they are slow to react unless certain hot buttons are pressed. Even adoption agency watchers has their hands dirty in this by playing up corruption fears, past histories, “I told you so” ego chip on the shoulder, and making things look worse than they seem. All it took was an AP article to start the fire and push things over the edge. It’s really unfortunate to see how many adoption SUCCESS stories are overlooked for stories of gripin’, bitchin’, whinin’, and not white as snow enough ethics.
United States is not as ‘free and glorified’ we all make it to be. We’ve created our own prison of lifestyle rules according to media, money, and lawyers. A closer look at VietNam will discover the absence of this crap. They have a more sense of a pure intra-community and culture than America will ever have. Perhaps we should take a step back and realize how PAP and AP’s are making a difference with VietNam children: giving them an education, a family, and love.
Why do you take the US report to be so true? Have you been watching and reading the news in the US over the years? You don’t think there has been political corruption motivated by political reasons in the US? Do you know about the Sigelman story in Alabama? The one where the US Attorney prosecuted the governor for what turns out to be political reasons and that her husband had ties to a certain political party. The courts let the governor out of jail recently.
Did you watch the news three weeks ago when two FAA officials testified before Congress, almost weeping, that if they didn’t look the other way on the FAA’s failure to require inspection of airplanes that their careers were threatened? It was only the lives of thousands of Americans at risk flying on those planes.
Carol Lam, the US Attorney in San Diego, who prosecuted corruption by certain party members was fired under the guise of not prosecuting enough gun crimes even though the FBI praised her work.
Look at the ongoing trial of Tony Rekzo in Chicago — testimony has been given that through connections he tried to have the federal prosecutor replaced by the White House so that the investigation would be dropped. Imagine that, someone tried to influence stopping a criminal investigation.
How many failings and corruption stories by US officials do you want? The list could go on and on.
And why doesn’t the US look into the baby industry in this country? Have you seen the stories in past years on Dateline where moms-to-be got money if they were going to give their child to a couple? Because it is in the US, we’ll just look the other way, right?
If it makes you feel better to lump us doubters of the US into whatever comfortable category you want to define, go ahead. But some of us prefer not to blindly accept whatever we’re fed.
“Why do you take the US report to be so true?”
Because it directly reflects what we have seen, heard and experiences first hand for 2.5 years now. Advocacy groups and organizations often have a direct line to first hand experiences that others do not. Still others have been brave enough to speak out here, on email loops and messageboards with their first hand accounts. Rarely, the media has highlighted certain accounts and experiences. There is a long long history of all the issues mentioned within the report occuring. There is no question to those of us who have closely followed this issue since day one that the reports are true.
Although the Embassy Summary is shocking, it is not sudden at all, it is not new information. We did not need this report to verify that this information existed since some of us have lived it, others have seen it first hand.
The US domestic adoption industry definitely can use some work. It is not free from corruption, it is still an “industry”. But it isn’t comparable to that of Vietnam. And even if it were, that simply isn’t justifiable reason for CIS and the Embassy to stop doing their jobs. They have no authority over domestic adoptions – their jobs are to deal with immigration issues. We like to try to simplify things within our very complex government by presuming that this body we call “our government” has the power to “simply” make decisions but the way we have built our government provides a lot more complexity than that. There really are still branches, specialized job descriptions and limited powers with checks and balances. There really is state and federal separation of power. We can’t use government failures in one section of government to justify ceasing government action in another.
Hi F. There’s certainly lots of corruption and bad people in the U.S. Including adoption related corruption and bad acts. I for one don’t blindly accept what I’m fed by the fed. The problem is….I have seen evidence of them personally. So have others. Lots of others. So….if the U.S. embassy is “lying” in the report, then so am I, so is *******, so are agency personnel I know that have described horrific conditions, and so is every other person who claims to have seen the corrupt activities described in the report. We are all liars. Because we live in a country where FAA officials were crying at a Congressional hearing.
If it makes you feel better to say “Hey, the U.S. sucks too and is really corrupt”, then go ahead and use that as your solace. Whatever gets you through the night. However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that the events described in the report are real. I for one take no solace in this awful mess knowing that some guy named Rezko is on trial in Chicago and claims to have ties to the White House. An empty crib is a sad thing and I’m heartbroken, but if it makes YOU feel better to wear you tin foil hat on, go right ahead. Have a blast.
F, I hear you, and I agree that there is plenty of corruption everywhere to go around. But are you then saying our government can never do anything right? That’s also throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I don’t believe most the embassy report because the embassy says so. I believe most of it because I have had it confirmed by a number of sources, many of whom I trust more than I trust our government. Our government just happens to be right on this one!
Who did stand for the best benefit of those poor children?
VN Gov.? US Gov.? None of them. They are busy to blame each other now.
VN side said US Ambassador firstly had sent the request of no agreement extension to VN authorities since early February 2008. And VN accepted US’s request! Now US seemed to make such bad story as caused VN’s fault by Embassy reports. They, with bad operation and control, let the corruption happened everywhere, NOT FOR CHILDREN!
US side accused VN of the awful corruption and trafficking in adoption that disclosed through the independent investigations. Embassy may speak out the truth. Just one thing makes me angry that’s… Why till now the ‘shock’ report shown out? Embassy silently collected the evidences careless that how many babies would prevent from selling if that reports have issued earlier? I am sorry but I doubt very much about the deep purpose of that report, NOT FOR CHILDREN!
How’s about PAP and AP? Besides your argument here, what can we do truly for the best benefits of Children?
Apparently you know so much about this entire situation, we should just take your position and not question anybody. Until you hear several sides of a story, including the opposition, you have heard only one side. If that’s what you choose to base your decisions on, fine. Some of us prefer to make our judgments based on several sources of information, and when we have seen so many cases of political bias, we choose to be skeptical. You say you have personal knowledge of corruption. How many cases, out of what number? And how do you know this? Would your information stand up to scrutiny?
Government has its own motivations, some are good, some are wrong. Government can do many things right, and it fails on several important levels (try Katrina– how do you explain a government watching that dire situation on TV and failing to act?). Information can be twisted when a political purpose is more important than the truth.
The country is out there crying for change for many reasons, not because we think the country, as you put it, “sucks.” We want a government that has the highest motivations to benefit its people. If you think that it does, good for you. Apparently, most of the country does not feel that way. Bottom line is that we have a duty to question our government and its policies and motivations, it is being a good citizen. Even the founding fathers put checks and balances within our Constitution because they realized that people have deficiencies when it comes to power.
F – you might not realize this but some of us (that would be me!) are of the same political ideology as you, exactly. And we STILL know this corruption to be true. Some of us HAVE scrutinized, talked to all sides, questioned the government and STILL know this report to be solid.
Here’s the problem: I think you are coming into this argument with a predetermined conclusion. You have already concluded that the government is wrong, lying and carrying with it a political agenda that doesn’t best represent the American people. And you are dismissing out of hand arguments which challenge that. But bottom line, no matter how many people I could put you in touch with who might be willing to share their personal stories of fraud and corruption, I know you will dismiss each of them systematically before you will ever acknowledge that this time – THIS time – the government got it right.
Some possibilities of what to do to best benefit children would be:
Join PEAR( http://www.pear-now.org/ )
Contribute to Ethica(http://www.ethicanet.org/itemlist.php?pagestyle=itemlist)
Contibute to Agencies/organizations that work for keeping families together/ supporting orphanages in Vietnam
(http://www.holtintl.org/flash/index.shtml, http://www.psbi.org/site/PageServer, http://www.brittanyshope.org/, http://www.worldvision.org/)
These are just a few options of how to get involved.
What you can do to help the children, support the charities that support them. There are many you can find through the Internet and also how a charity distributes its contributions. Write your congressional representatives and ask them to replace the aid given by adoption agencies with US taxpayer money in the form of humanitarian aid. Ask for a resolution of this conflict between the US and Vietnam on adoption.
I’m sorry, but you don’t know me to make any kind of determinations. Because I choose to have an open mind about the situation and whether the situation is really as portrayed by the US, you all want to lump me in a particular category. If that makes you feel better and content in your beliefs, I have no problem with that. I base my opinions on hearing different sides of the story.
I am sure this opinion will unnerve some folks:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2008/02/06/usa_makes_adoption_harder
Slamming the Door on Adoption
Depriving Children Abroad of Loving Homes
By Elizabeth Bartholet
Sunday, November 4, 2007; Page B07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201782.html
http://cbs5.com/local/vietnam.orphan.adoption.2.649012.html
Adopting Children From Vietnam Becomes Struggle
Sharon Chin, Reporting
”
Immigration attorney Lynda Zengerle said, “Our adoption parents were told ‘If you just take your baby back to the orphanage and relinquish it there, give it up, kind of like taking a sweater back…'”
“The U.S. embassy claimed Patrick’s birth mother didn’t want to surrender her baby. But the DiGioacchinos say their lawyer gathered evidence to show that the embassy did a poor investigation, and that Patrick’s birth mother really did want to give him up.”
http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/jan/14/couples-ally-to-publicize-foreign-adoption/
Couples ally to publicize foreign adoption plights
International dispute holds up some visas
“The federal agency issued a Notice of Intent to Deny the visa for the other child, named Madelyn Grace, who has been in foster care in Vietnam since October.
“”It’s appalling,” said lawyer Lynda Zengerle, who heads the immigration division of the law firm Steptoe and Johnson in Washington, D.C. “This is the worst situation I’ve seen, and I have been doing this a long time.”
“Zengerle blamed the roadblock on two factors: first, bureaucratic wrangles between the U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which is part of the Department of Homeland Security; and second, a souring of relations between the U.S. and Vietnamese governments.
“Zengerle said the families are caught in the middle between the two agencies of the U.S. government.”
“”It’s incredibly frustrating,” said Julie Carroll. “Everyone seems to have lost sight of the fact that this is about a child.”
“Zengerle said investigations by Vietnamese lawyers have shown that the children being denied visas are not wanted by their biological parents and meet the international definition of an “orphan.”
“The Carrolls filed an appeal against the Notice of Intent to Deny in mid-December through their Georgia-based immigration attorney, Irene Steffas.
“”In the U.S., we don’t penalize children for their parents’ crimes. But in Vietnam, we penalize children for what their government officials do not disclose,” Steffas said in a statement to The Star. “The children are being used as pawns. If the family fights for their child, the U.S. consul tells them that they are contributing to corruption in Vietnam.”
So what I gather is that you are basing your opinion on these media pieces?
No, people need to know that there are other sides to the story. The people in those articles are real people who are telling their side. Do you think that they would misrepresent what they are going through?
Did you read the comments under the Stossel story? Comments again from people, just like comments here. People telling their stories.
To further answer your question, I have personal contacts with people who have had similar experiences as cited in those articles. The Embassy cared less about them or children than it did their objectives.
Hm. I’m pretty sure if the Embassy cared less, it would have issued them a visa and been done with it. Sometimes caring, to one person, isn’t perceived that way to another – particularly if the other person is no longer a benefiting party.
F – since you are collecting sides to the “story”, I would be happy to send you the phone numbers of individuals who have witnessed child trafficking in Viet Nam in large numbers. This way, you won’t have to rely on a report written by employees of a country you find inherently distrustful. I assume you will jump at the chance to hear these sides to the story and that you will let us all know how you’ve ultimately “made up your mind” on whether the stuff in the Report is true. You can let the administrators of the blog you are posting on how to contact you.
ok – I’ll bite. I’d love to have the phone numbers – the administrators have my email. I am absolutely horrified by the allegations in the State Dept report, as well as the other allegations that I’ve read on list serves over the past 2 years. I do not want to participate in or perpetuate a corrupt system. The problem I have is that this “proof” is anectodotal – where are the facts – such as location, time, names of the VN and US people involved in corrupt practices. I’m a government lawyer, and if I turned in a “report” like that, my boss would return it to me asap w/ a clear instruction to cite to some kind of proof. I’m quite sure that the DOS is aware that this report is the diplomatic equivilent of giving VN the middle finger – so why not issue a comprehensive report that shows what exactly went wrong and where? And, if the problems are limited to certain areas and orphanages and agencies, why paint the whole country and program w/ a broad brush of corruption? I can only speak to my agency’s practices – they give pregnant women prenatal care regardless of whether they decide to place their children for adoption or not. They provide services such as job search help to women who keep their children. They pay the orphanage a set fee per capita for each child in the orphanage – irrespective of age or whether that child is legally able to be adopted. They have had a steady 50-50 rate of abandonment v. relinquishments. Are they the aberration or the norm? I’d love to see a break down of exactly where these corrupt practices occurred, who the wrongdoers were, and whether there were any repercussions. For some reason, our country doesn’t want to share actual information it has. For some reason, our country thinks its appropriate to notify PAPs of their allegations by leaking a report to the press – even though these PAPs have paid thousands in fees to the US government. Ok, that’s a little OT, but it really burns me up – don’t even get me started on the need to “renew” fingerprints – hello, they don’t change – why don’t they just run the report to make sure that you haven’t committed a crime in the interim! I expected adoption to be one of the most joyful and fulfilling experiences of my life, and it’s become the polar opposite. I am really struggling over whether I should accept a referral should one come b/f whatever the cut off date is, and I feel like I really do not have the information I need to make this very important decision.
Laura – maybe PAP
I would assume the US govt does have a report that has all the details about agencies/orphanages etc, but do you really think that these are things that they can publish on the internet? If you were the parent of one of the children involved or your child came from the same orphanage that was accused of unethical activity would you want the details published on the internet in a public report? I think there are privacy issues here.
yes I do think that the government should share the complete report. Childrens and birth family names can be redacted, but I can’t think of any privacy laws that protect the guiltly. People have a right to know their story – whether they’re a child, PAP, or AP. If I do end up w/ a referral in time, and I accept the baby, I will want to know everything about his origin. Me, the baby, and the first family all deserve that much. Finally, I think that painting the whole country w/ such broad based allegations doens’t do any one any good. IF the discussion stopped here, every person would have to conclude their adoption was unethical at best. That to me is unacceptable.
Bravo, Laura! You said exactly how I feel.
PAP
I would not intrude on the privacy of strangers. If they wish, there are a multitude of avenues to publicly convey their experiences, and for people to ask questions. And if they haven’t done so, that is their choice. Openness and transparency are what is needed to discern the truth.
Why did the US not give numbers of how many irregularities they found in cases? How many approvals have been granted at the same time as NOIDS? Ever wonder why the report was so sensational? If a government were interested in the welfare of the children, why didn’t they work behind the scenes with Vietnam to try and resolve issues? The US has, historically, worked quietly in sensitive areas on the most difficult world issues. Why not here?
I have yet to see you answer any of the points raised in several of these articles. You only seem bent on trying to convince me that I am wrong. In the meantime, other countries which don’t find these irregularities with Vietnam continue to have their citizens adopt Vietnamese children. If you read the comments by people in the Stossel article, then you know there are more people than just me voicing similar opinions.
I’m not sure if you are replying to M or me or both or everyone. It would help if you would reply to specific comments.
I’ll answer your question with a question:
To you, how many NOIDs are too many? How many are ok? How many incidents of child trafficking are ok? How many instances of coercion are ok? How many times should a child be held against the parents will and adopted out? How many times should an orphanage be allowed to fabricate paperwork before it is a concern? How many lies should be told surrounding a given adoption before it is no longer considered ethical to you?
Why do you presume the government did not spend the last 28 months working quietly and diplomatically? Its interesting to me that you seem to both want complete transparency and full disclosure but also quiet negotiations. We can’t have it both ways.
Nikki – your question is legit. I’d like to know how many:
(1) instances of trafficking from Viet Nam, including instances of shaking down birthparents for money to prevent adopting their child out internationally and instances of outright baby theft; and
(2) months/years of the U.S. watching this go on
…F think should occur before the U.S. is allowed to issue a report explaining why it is doing all these investigations into a child’s dossier?
Anyhow, as you can see, the original complaint was that the U.S. was just “hassling the Vietnamese” for “no reason” and “not telling anyone why the investigations were happening with more scrutiny”. Now that a report HAS been issued, the complaint is NOW that there aren’t dates and times of the incidents. Would people like “F” (who seems obsessed with John Stossel, but whatever) really be moved if they found out the names of the persons with stolen kids were Nguyen Thanh Thi, Duc Van Linh, Le Giang Tu and the dates of the traffickings occurred on March 1, 2007, December 20, 2007 and February 2, 2008, respectively? Would that really make a difference in the mind of the “F’s” of the world. I doubt it. They’d just move on to another argument. People like F don’t seem to be horrified that as we type, there’s a father in a family in Central Viet Nam who weeps so hard for his stolen child he can barely see through his swollen eyes. No. F wouldn’t care and would just declare that the man doesn’t exist unless and until we can prove the existence of this man to F. To the Fs of the world, this is all an intellectual exercise; arguing in the comment section of Townhall. If F cared so much about the truth, he/she’d get on a plane and go see what’s happening for himself. This is my first and last foray into the lovely world of comments sections on blogs. Have a blast.
To Nicki
Quiet negotiations come when issues are trying to be resolved. Openness and transparency come when efforts have failed and the government makes a case showing why they have taken certain actions. If the government worked for 28 months on these issues, they should tell us that negotiations were undertaken with the VN government and ASPs and the results. And if they can’t tell us, they can tell our legal representatives, Congress, and it, on the people’s behalf, can ask questions to ascertain whether the situation was handled appropriately. That is not unreasonable.
So, from what you are saying if there are 100 cases, but five are fraudulent, then the other 95 kids suffer as a result because it is more important to preserve an honest system than to make sure that the truly abandoned 95 orphans are placed in families that will love and care for them? That any number of cases make the entire system broken and irreparable?
Let’s say the situation is the opposite and that there are 95 cases of fraudulent adoptions, and five who are legitimate, is there no way to save the five innocents? If the situation was so dire in Vietnam, then why not the specifics? Was the whole country so corrupt that there were not ethical adoptions going on? But then if you make that argument, why has the US government issued any approvals for adoptions this year? Why aren’t all adoptions proven to be fraudulent? But that isn’t the case, is it?
M,
You dont’ really want to discuss issues. You really like the personal attacks. It your way or the highway. Goodbye.
What about the possibility of US agencies being large motivating factors TO the corruption, as well as people / agencies in Vietnam being responsible for the corruption, working together like a “team.” The US Report finds this out and tries pointing the finger to Vietnam to detour away from the blame behind the child trafficking and corruption that the US is responsible for. When in fact, both countries are guilty and partially responsible.
Ultimately the shutting down of adoptions from Vietnam isn’t going to stop the corruption. The agencies will just pack up and move onto another country ( if they haven’t already.)
Perhaps, since a great deal of the “demand” has been cut off, maybe some of the corruption will settle from Vietnam. My question now is who or what country will be next because the real problem hasn’t been solved.
I would LOVE contacts to people directly involved in the corruption. My email is withoutatribe (at ) yahoo.com.
I comopletely agree. It seems pretty clear to me that Ethiopia will be next.
I have heard the “Ethiopia Next” reference from quite a few people lately.
I don’t think this is about tin foil hats or blinders. I think this issue is about the fact that each side has a perspective that has truth.
Unfortunately, I believe the US (and I am no FAN of the US govt.)should be pushing other governments for fairness, transparent processes, and non-monetary driven adoptive processes. WHY? WE pay lots of money which means there is greater incentive for corruption. WE are responsible to each of our children in answering ethics questions. AND…… Each of our children is raised in a country other than their own. Each of our children will struggle to some degree with the issue of where they belong and the legitimacy of their circumstances. Each of our children should have comfort in knowing that we and our government worked for assurances that relinquishment and abandonments were done freely and without coersion regardless.
I would hope that our government is incorrect in their assertions but at two different times with two different children I have seen things that concern me. As I look at Tu Du records, I realize that my oldest may have had some falsified papers. As I look at the Embassy reports, I realize that my agency asked me for more money, didn’t allow me to see the orphanage, gave me a child for whom I can not get accurate, or should I say consistent, government records. Real issues? Maybe. Potential issues? Probably. Questions in my head forever? You bet.
I enjoyed reading F’s articles. Do they have merit? Yes. AM I up for free market adoptions? NO WAY. I live in an area where free market has corrupted systems and killed my economy. Free market and adoptions are a recipe for disaster. Children going to the highest bidder. APs offering the best price for the best baby? Are they real estate? Are they commodities? With all due respect to those arguing less government oversight, I am already trying to answer to my children about the high fees and whether or not it constitutes buying them.
The ethics here is about us, our children, and their birth families. Too many things have gone on for me to ignore. Maybe not for everyone else but… then again, this is America, we are each free to have an opinion. I believe that the current situation has come the right intersection.
I feel horrible for those who have waited and now are in jeopardy of having no referral. My heart aches for those in this situation.
I feel awful that there are birth families denied the opportunity to reconnect with a child or my child. I have no way to investigate how to mitigate this issue.
BUT…I don’t feel bad for ASPs who have never pushed for the controls and agreements that would have saved all of us this heartache. They are truly responsible. Let’s talk about that in this context.
K-
I don’t feel bad for “the ASPs who have never pushed for the controls and agreements that would have saved all of us the heartache” either– but someone PLEASE tell me…..
HOW CAN I FIND OUT WHICH AGENCIES ARE THE GUILTY PARTIES HERE?
I have assumed that my agency is ethical– of course I wouldn’t knowingly participate in what has gone on in Vietnam regarding human rights’ abuses.
But now here I am stuck (LID March 2008) wondering what on earth to do.
I would LOVE to know how to view my agency right now. Assuming VN isn’t going to be the country from which we adopt to start our family, should I leave the agency? Change programs within the agency?
How can I know?
HELP!
Isn’t it funny that no official ever tells us who are the agencies? Not the US or VN. It seems to me that this information would not be confidential as it would refer to an agency rather than a family or child. Also, no agency has ever really been put out of business as to their practices. But the US and VN can get into a peeing contest. Why? I don’t really know. Any thoughts would be conjecture.
Louise, I am deeply sorry for the position you are in. You will be in my thoughts through this ugly time.
K
Louise,
I would really question any agency still sending in dossiers (March 2008-that is just crazy….sorry, but so true)! I mean most agencies stopped accepting new clients a LONG time ago. If you have read APV or VVAI at all you (and certainly your agency) had to have known the program was at the very least unstable for several months. Although I can not imagine any PAP submitting documents at this late date (I mean you probably have 2,000+ people in front of you waiting for a referral and only 4 months to get it in), your agency certainly should have known better. How in the world could any agency still be allowing families to get their hopes up (and I am sure pay their agency fees) when the writing has been on the wall for several months???
I am not trying to be mean to anyone, but I honestly can not even see why anyone would chose to start a Vietnam adoption at this time? International adoption is emotionally difficult and terribly expensive when everything is running as it should. Why not go with a country (I will admit there are not many choices available right now) that has a stable program? How are these people (especially those that try to make it before the July deadline) going to feel when they spend all this money and get no baby out of it? There are hundreds of people who have been waiting 1+ years who are looking at this exact scenerio….it just baffles my mind honestly. To me these agencies still taking on clients need to be put to the very top of the unethical list. They may not be buying babies, but they certainly are taking advantage of these new clients (IMO of course).
folks, I know many of you will say I must still be blind or will not admit it much like what has happened to F in regards to her posts. I am not in a situation where this effects me but do feel for all of the AP’s out there who it does. just think about the chain of events, US embassy and consulate get way behind,,, have a pissing match with each other, get called on it by many many many people who were affected by it so they change the system. They promise one thing does not happen, say more still gets worse and now this. Just sound to fishy to me. Our government has a long long history of doing such as this time and time again. This in no means says the Vietnamese Gov’t is squeeky clean themselves, but stuff just does not add up. I personally know of several cases and have heard and saw one of them when I was in country so yes it does happen. However their posting on the embassy website leads you to believe the entire country is. Just not so, they should post numbers for people instead of greatly exaggerating things to cya.
lets just say that our govt (different agency) is in investigating actions by US embassy and consulates for thngs. I know of one person who had to go in country to do so, so this also leads me to believe somethings else is amiss.
Regardless, things work different there and yet again our govt and their american bullying and posturing has caused issues. Maye just maybe one day we will get a clue and lets hope the next administration has better foreign relations talents than the current one.
Sorry to keep on, but do you think if our government had of handled things a little differently(political relations wise) that maybe both sides would have worked together. the chain of events makes it seem like that really was no0t an option,, gotta be our way or the highway. So 2 countries down (more if you go back far enough) how many more to go.
In regards to the Embassy working with agencies, do you think they show in favoritism to certain? Based on what I have read over the past 6 mos. from AP’s & PAP’s it seems like some agencies I-600’s seems to get through faster and smoother. Do you think they examine referrals from all agencies equally?
There is only one group of people who do not share any responsibility for this mess. The children.
Aside from them, the responsibility falls on many shoulders. Most of this I put on the unethical provincial officials/agencies/baby brokers and any one who turned a blind eye to these practices. They are truly the root of the problem. Also, the US gov’t. Did the US gov’t aid in this shut down? Yes. Could they have handled this better? Probably. I completely agree with BB about bullying and poor foreign relations. Did they have alterior motives? A definite possibility. (I love this country, but believe me I am one of its biggest critics. Dissent is patriotic, right?) Are the “ethical” agencies partly to blame? I think so. Many had the power to push for more transparency. Are AP/PAP’s partly to blame? Absolutely. Although I like to believe NO ONE knowingly would ever have any part of an unethical adoption, we are the ones handing over checks. We hold a lot of power, even though people never seem to believe this.
I have to say I’m almost (but not really) amused that people are still finding ways around admitting the Vietnam program was not as transparent as it could have been. How many families have to come out with their stories before we all finally admit that corruption does exist in Vietnam? Corruption is not a figment of someone’s imagination. It happens. It is happening somewhere in the world right now. It happened in Vietnam. I guess I am just not understanding why this is so hard to grasp.
I realize it hurts to even think there is a REMOTE possibility that one’s child could have been illegally, or unethically adopted. Been there. I don’t believe that the Vietnam program was wrought with unethical practices. In fact, I actually believe most adoptions were on the up and up. But that’s not what gets reported, is it? Those are not the stories our children are going to read when they get older. And that is why I feel so deeply that AP/PAP’s need to face the facts of corruption. You cannot deal with your children growing up, reading the stories of VN adoption, without first coming to terms with it yourself.
It is too easy to blame our government, but although I do not like how they have handled the situation, they did not cause the corruption. There is plenty of blame to go around here. The Vietnamese government clearly did not uphold their end of the MOU, and clearly did not do enough to prevent corruption. Our government, I feel, was right to identify these practices, but did not seem to try to work together with the Vietnamese to stop the problem, instead taking a more combative approach. Agencies, not all but far too many, created a system ripe for abuse. PAPs too often want babies AYAP and either turn a blind eye to suspicious agency practices or (as I believe in most cases) truly trust in their agencies to do the right thing and never thought that such people could participate in anything so seedy. I don’t really blame individual PAPs for such thoughts. I am (well was) one. When I decided to adopt a baby, I had images in my head of news reports showing needy children in orphanages who needed homes. Every agency will tell you of the great need in various countries and how there are countless children who need homes. Over the years, though, we have all seen other news reports of baby selling and other underhanded practices. I simply wanted another child. I chose international adoption because, despite the reports of abuse, I believed that there was a child out there for me who needed a home and I wanted to be that home. I tried to follow the advice of those who had done this before me and worked hard to choose an ethical agency. The problem is that I am only one of thousands who set out to do that, and all of us AS A GROUP are a contributing factor as our numbers provide incentive for unscrupulous people with dollar signs in their eyes.
In my humble opinion, the only way to stop such corruption is to follow the money and have nearly failproof procedures which prevent people from profiting off the children, first families and PAPs. (Linh, how does the Hague provide for this?) I don’t know if this is possible, but it is the only way IA can continue and remain in the best interest of all involved.
well said rachel I agree 100% with you
Ok, I’m not THE F, just a different F
Luara – I’m wondering how your investigation is going, as I am assuming that “M” has emailed you all of the phone #’s of those
individuals who have witnessed child trafficking? Once you have phoned everyone and have compiled your results, perhaps you could have the Admins forward them to me. I have a friend who is a Hague attorney at the U.N. working for the Secretary General. Given the astronomical numbers reported (and presumably verified by you), this should be of great interest to the S.G. as this goes way beyond PAP’s and AP’s
Gershorn – if you could do the same thing, as I’m sure that “M” and others have already emailed you, that would be ideal.
Thank you.
“F” I was never contacted, sorry.