Contributed by Jena
Recently on the two list serves that I belong to, people have been asking the question, “what are the reputable/ethical agencies that still allow you to select gender and don’t have super long wait times?” The short answer, in my opinion, is NONE. Many of the well established reputable agencies are either not taking any more PAP’s for Vietnam(FTIA , Harrah’s), no longer allowing families to select gender(PSBI ), or in the case of Holt, they never allowed families to select gender.Here is what I wrote:
This question seems to be coming up in quite a few places. I would like to submit a slightly different point of view. Perhaps the one of the marks of a reputable/ethical agency is the very fact that they do not allow you to select the gender of your child.
While I realize that this point of view may not be popular, it seems to me that when all the major “reputable” agencies are saying the same thing, perhaps this should be a signal that the truth of part of being ethical is that when there are not baby girls available, they do not say that there are baby girls available.
I understand that when Vietnam reopened, there were both boys and girls available, and now there are not( unless you go with certain agencies). So while it may seem “unfair” that families who got in at the beginning got to “pick”, we must realize that children are not a right. Whatever the reason that we are looking to adoption to build our families, we cannot allow our desire for a child(ren) be more important than the real reason that adoption exists, to provide families for children who need them. If adoption exists to provide children for families who want them, we are participating in a supply and demand “market” that is a breeding ground for child trafficking and baby selling.
After receiving one vicious personal email from an APV member attacking my motives and any personal issues that I may need to look at behind my motives, and several on-line sarcastic replies; I posted this as part of my clarification on APV:
I also wanted to clarify that the reason that I wrote `Perhaps’ several times was not because I was trying to be nice, it was actually because I am wrestling with this entire question for myself/our family. While we do already have 1 daughter, I desperately now want another one(after desperately wanting two boys). I have lots of girls clothes, my daughter wants a sister, I love girly stuff like fixing hair and dress-up. And I/we are trying to process if all of those reasons are enough to “wait for a girl,” or if we are to trust that perhaps we do not know what is best for our family, but that there is someone who does. I really, honestly don’t have the answer yet, and I value those people who thoughts/opinion was different than mine, because I want really do want our fourth child to be a daughter.
I had always kind of thought that we would adopt our fourth from China, thereby circumventing the question, but with the new parent requirements, we no longer qualify. So I have to ask myself the same question, if I knew that we would have another boy, would I want another child?
I really don’t know. There is a part of me that wants to believe that if we didn’t specify gender and got another boy, then we could trust that God knew that another boy is what was best for our family. But there is the other part of me that really, really wants a girl.
But is wanting reason enough for getting? From the tone of several replies to my post on APV, as well as personal emails, I am realizing that many, many people do believe that if they want something, then they should get it, they in fact have a right to it, simply by merit of the fact that they want it and it is available.
To me, this is a dangerous proposition, and a slippery slope to plant your feet in.
31 Responses
CHI still allows one to select gender and they are one of the most ethical agencies. But they have a long waiting list and let you know if you are only open to a girl the wait will probably be well over 2 years. The wait for a boy is 12-15 months, so still along wai!
Hello,
I think that feeling like you should get what you want when it comes to a human is silly. When you or I or anyone else for that matter get pregnant we do not have a choice if it is a girl or a boy. So thinkint it is a right that if you want a girl and God gives you a boy that it is wrong is awful. You need to put your faith in God and trust whatever he deals you is what you should have or not have. 😀
Good luck!
Linda G.
I have always been perplexed by the number of adoptive parents who want girls. I’m not saying it’s wrong to want a girl, I just don’t understand why the ratio of parents wanting girls to wanting boys is so lopsided. Having three girls and one boy at home already, we have specifically requested a boy this time, and I understand parents wanting a specific gender in families like mine, and yours. I don’t understand it when the PAPs have no children. Again, I’m saying this as a criticism, just as an “I don’t understand.” Anyway, interesting post.
oops — I just re-read my comment, and that last sentence should say, “I’m NOT saying this as a criticism . . .”
Ok, all I have to say is, “WOW”. My husband and I are amidst adopting our first child, from Vietnam. We are very excited and nervous all at once. We have always said we wanted a little girl and have gone through this process seeking a little girl between 0-5 yrs of age. Now- when I read your post, a light bulb went off and being a believer and having faith that God will make the right choice for our family is precisely how we should have and should BE thinking throughout this process. Afterall, I believe He lead us to adoption, to international adoption and to Vietnam. Why not a specific child? I have to say it opened my eyes and I am embarresed to say that though I was not really focused on being aware of it…We may have just thought, “we should be able to decide”. The reality is just as stated, “when you are pregnant, you can’t decide”. But here is another tid bit for those wanting girls or even open to both boys and girls to think about….What about age range? If we shouldn’t be able to select the gender of a child then why should we be able to select age ranges and for that matter, to take it a step further…Health. None of us know when giving birth (always) if our children will be healthy. And if we are adopting for the true well being of the child, then shouldn’t we be open to a wide variety of age ranges and health issues? Doesn’t entitlement come in there as well??? Hmmm? Lots to think about….
Thanks for the candid post! It will have me thinking and praying 🙂
Robin-
Thanks so much for that post, your comment about health is another thing that we are thinking about /processing….. It is so good to know that this blog is doing some good and helping people, b/c that is what it’s purpose is!
Jena
I think when you go into adoption you do have more choices. I think every PAP has the right to decide what is best for them and their family. Adoption is something you need to go in with eyes open. It is a business. And while that may seem cruel and unusual, why should you not be able to specify which gender you would like to join your family.
I understand the conflict. Saying you want a baby girl, as young as possible, is something that is stated by the social worker, agency, etc. It is how we had to file papers for China when we thought we were going through that route. I don’t see why that in and of itself is necessarily a bad thing. Some people request a boy as young as possible, to try to circumvent any attachment/institutional issues that come along with an older child.
Now, the as fast as possible is a whole other kettle of fish. And is just unrealistic in the climate now. With so many people moving to Viet Nam from China and other programs that have slowed considerably, I don’t see how anyone thinks things will be fast with any agency is weird and ill conceived. It will take some time for people to realize that things aren’t happening in a week now. That it is a governmental process now.
Just my take, take it or leave it….
I have two boys, and will soon have a third. I have always, always wanted a daugter, but I doubt that I would ever get one biologically.
I adore my boys, but being the mommy of all boys is sometimes a very lonely job! Would it be wrong for someone like me to want to adopt a little girl? I know many others like me who feel like adoption is their only change to ever raise a daughter…
Hi AprilMay-
I understand your desire to parent a daughter, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to adopt a girl, my only question is why should you have the chance to raise a daughter? Adoption does not exist so that people who have not been able to get want they want biologically can get what they want by paying for it. Adoption exists to provide families for children that need them. The reality is in Vietnam, not that many girls need families. Just my opinion.
This is a very interesting post, but I must respectfully disagree with two of Jena’s conclusions. The first is her conclusion that the mark of a reputable agency is that they don’t allow parents to choose gender. Until recently, most agencies did allow parent to choose a boy or girl; I’m in the process of interviewing agencies now and not a single one has said they stopped the practice for ethical concerns. Instead, they stopped for business reasons: the law of supply and demand (which manifests itself in adoptions differently than at the supermarket, but its effects can still be felt). Agencies could not reasonably meet the desires of parents–paying clients–who wanted girls, so they changed their policy.
The other point I disagree with is the implicit conclusion that parents don’t have the right to choose gender. I think we do–but it must be a responsible choice, in the same way that choosing an agency (or even to adopt in the first place) MUST be a responsible choice. I’m ashamed to say this–ashamed because I never realized it about myself until I was confronted with the issue–but if I was told I could only adopt a boy, I would probably decline. I don’t think it’s fair to want one child and accept another because that’s what’s available IF it will affect your family or your relationship with the child.
Jena is right that adoption exists to provide families for waiting children, but I’m more than happy to stick by my preference and get in line for a girl. There ARE many girls that need homes, and there will continue to be many girls that need homes; right now, however, demand for HBG has created an artificial situation that should correct itself soon.
Sorry for the novel-length post!
There is nothing wrong with wishing for a daughter. However, there is a big difference between holding a gender preference in your heart, and refusing to adopt unless you are absolutely sure you won’t get a boy. If someone really feels that they would be incapable of loving a son, what would they do if their daughter turned out to be a tomboy, or didn’t enjoy dressing up in the adorable outfits they bought for her? People who are serious about adopting need to be open to raising a child with any personality, not just a sweet, docile girl who looks cute in pigtails.
Hi Bosh & Pecks-
A good resource to check out statistics in gender preference and adoption is: http://www.in-gender.com/XYU/Gender-Preference/#Adoption
According to this source, this is a trend(preferring females) across the board in adoption, international and domestic, and in fact is a trend in those who are using new technology to “gender select” by doing MicroSort Sperm Separation(http://www.microsort.net/). So in fact it does not look like an artificial situation that will correct itself soon. I have heard many families say that adoption is “their only chance for a girl”, well in fact they could use MicroSort(which I am in no way codoning).
Jena–The desire to influence gender at the point of conception is at least as old as I am; my mother worked some magic with a thermometer and ovulation timing because she wanted a son after having me. I’m still not sure how I feel about that.
When I said that the artificial situation would correct itself, I meant that the disproportionate supply of healthy baby boys would correct itself if agencies continue to make and receive referrals ethically, because that’s where the disparity lies. (I’m not aware of any research, anecdotal or otherwise, which suggests that the orphanages themselves have more boy babies than girl babies–please correct me if I’m wrong, because that makes what I’m about to say meaningless.) Let’s suppose that Agency X has allowed parents to choose gender, resulting in a plethora of available boys and no girls. So they change their policy–parents now get the next referral regardless of gender. The first batch of parents would get the boy referrals that weren’t being given when parents were choosing girl referrals BUT THEN, all other things being equal, the next batch of parents would be getting random (gender) referrals. Which means that if you are adopting from an agency who just changed their policy, you’d probably get a boy. But if you adopt from an agency that never allowed parents to select gender (like Holt), you have a 50-50 (or whatever the statistical proportion is in orphanages) chance of having a girl.
Interesting to think about…. : )
These are all interesting comments to read.
Here’s where I get hung up:
In Vietnam, there are no healthy waiting children under the age of 5, period. There are waits with every agency I have heard of that is reputable and ethical. Some have shorter waits than others but still, there are parents waiting, not children.
So whether a parent requests a baby girl or a baby boy, so long as an agency is acting ethically and not putting undue pressure on an orphanage to procure orphans of only a certain gender, does a family’s gender preference affect the program overall? If a family wants to wait 10x longer for a baby girl, it won’t necessarily harm the program, as far as I can tell, so long as there remains an over-saturation of waiting parents. Someone challenge this theory, if I’m off base.
Hmmmmm-
Bosh & Pecks and Nicki-
I COMPLETELY agree with you in theory, what I am saying is that the demand for healthy baby girls is what created this disparity in the first place. And that demand will not disappear according to the source I cited.
My question is this- why are we “all” asking for baby girls and is it truly ethical(perhaps moral is a better term) to ask for a baby girl simply because we want one. For myself, I really can’t think of and acceptable reasons that justify asking for a girl. They all boil down to selfish reasons for me in the end. I have only recently begun to feel this way. Perhaps my son is the reason for my change of perspective.
My original premise is that while it may have been ethical to say that baby girls are available even 1 year ago, it is no longer ethical. So instead of an agency putting people on wait lists for baby girls, the more ethical thing to do would be to say; There are currently no healthy baby girls available in Vietnam. The are more boys available than girls. If you can only ask for a girl, Vietnam is not the program for you right now. But this would mean that agencies would lose money, because they would not be getting their application and agency fees etc, while people wait for girls.
The reason that everyone asks for baby girls has never been determined; my favorite theory is that it’s because adoptions are overwhelmingly initiated by women, and they’re favoring children who will be like themselves–fellow females.
I’m not sure why it’s unethical to ask for a baby girl; if it’s acceptable to choose to adopt from Vietnam over Ethiopia, or to ask for a healthy infant instead of a blind 3 year old, why does gender preference become a moral decision? I don’t see anything wrong with parents wanting and asking for a HBG…but it is very, very wrong to try and circumvent the system, close your eyes to shady facilitators, offer “donations,” etc. to get what you want.
As you may have guessed from my comments, I would like to adopt a girl and when I finally choose an agency, will probably go with one that honors that preference. I freely admit that many people would say that my choice was selfish, but I’d be more concerned if there weren’t families who were waiting for and wanting boys. The act of adoption is rooted in a similarly selfish desire to become parents, after all.
I have to agree with Bosh and Pecks…I love my two sons, and I’m sure I will adore my third, but why is it unethical to ask for a baby girl? Adoption IS a choice to begin with. As for hoping for a certain gender, women usually DO hope for a certain gender, (especially after three of the same in a row!) whether pregnant OR adopting. Jenna, you asked me why I should have the chance to raise a daughter… as long as adoption choices exist (which may not be for long) than I ask why shouldn’t I have the chance? Ideally, adoption should be selfless and all about providing a home for a child…but it’s NOT selfless. Most people go into adoption because they want a child. I will say I don’t understand the women with NO children at home who request a girl. But I understand too well the women like me…who are MUCH outnumbered at home…who would adore a daughter…tomboy or not!
I find this an interesting debate as well, and while I’m very open-minded to everyone’s opinion, my mind will not change when it comes to gender choice. I do not see anything unethical at all about choosing gender, age, etc. For some of us, adoption is a choice we enter into without the need. I am not adopting because of fertility reasons, I’m adopting just because it’s something I have always wanted to do. That said, I have always wanted to adopt a girl. If there were no girls available and the agency said you need to adopt a boy, then I would stop the process. I have no desire whatsoever to have a son. If I had a son biologically, of course I would love him and that would be that. I have a biological daughter and I went into pregnancy fully aware that I could have a son. I was not opposed to birthing a son, otherwise I would have not gotten pregnant. But when it comes to adoption, that’s a choice that I have, and I will only adopt a girl. I know many people will think that’s just terrible, but I don’t. It’s my choice and my right to choose to adopt a girl. But I think everyone has valid thoughts and I respect them all!
My $0.02. Choosing a gender in adoption is not unethical. It is a blanket statement, but I believe it to be true. *I* don’t agree with it, but that in and of itself does not make it unethical.
However, as the situation aggressively worsens in Vietnam, and if lightening the load of PAPs demanding girls would aid in it getting better – this is where the ethics of it come in. It’s a question of morality whether we would like to see it or not. Where does the problem begin? It begins with the fact that Vietnam is not China and does not have a majority of girls available for adoption.
So, the moral question comes in when you ask – do you do what is best for yourself? or do you do what is best for the group as a whole? There are a couple of issues.
I don’t include when Vietnam just opened. We’re discussing the situation as it stands now and how it will continue. Could Vietnam adoptions as a whole become corrupt because of the need to meet the high demand for girls? If no, then there’s no problem. If PAPs are adamantly choosing agencies that are ethical, which as we can see and read on blogs isn’t the case in the majority of situations. Unfortunately, I doubt that a no to that question is true. There will be someone out there willing to go the extra corrupt mile to get baby girls to meet the high demand – and we are continuing to hold our stance on having our RIGHT to a baby GIRL. And there will be even more PAPs that don’t know or don’t care. As I see it the answer is yes (you can argue this point if you see differently). Yes, there could possibly be corruption due to a high demand for girls. Here’s the next issue. Whose responsibility is it to solve the problem? Is it the orphanges? Is it Vietnam? Is it the agencies? Is it us? Should we do what we believe is best for ourselves and our “family” and screw the rest? Should we do what is best for the group as a whole and possibly the future of adoption in Vietnam? You see, I don’t believe that YOU, as an individual, demanding a baby girl in Vietnam is unethical. I believe that well beyond half of the Vietnam adoption population demanding a baby girl and taxing the system, creating the need for people to be corrupt to meet that demand – is what is unethical. See, there is a fine line between what you do for yourself and what you add to the group as a whole. They are different, but linked.
I think Melinda may have hit the nail on the head for me.
I agree with Melinda…my first choice is to adopt a girl, but I would give up my dream of a daughter before I would EVER use an unethical agency!! If it can’t be done ethically, I won’t do it. Although, I’m not sure taking away the right to choose the sex will fix the problem. There are still the two other factors…ayap and as quickly as possible!
Melinda – you bring up a great point about the definition of ethical. I think ethics are a little easier to define than morals and values but the three get intertwined quite often. I also think that, easier or not, no one will ever agree on what constitutes an ethical adoption. It would be a great topic for a blog entry, itself!
I realize that there is more to an ethical adoption than what I wrote about (especially concerning ayap and asap). It’s such a large subject, and there are so many facets to it, that it couldn’t possibly be covered in one comment, maybe not even in just one blog entry. But you are right in that they should all be covered in a discussion of ethics as they are all intertwined.
The pull for your child is very strong and very personal . Looking back to see the bigger picture, Vietnam adoptions and it’s process as a whole, is not easy.
Personally, I think the biggest question is this: Once ethics are defined, how much of a moral obligation do I have as a PAP to ensure that my adoption is ethical?
It’s such a complex subject – ethics, values, moral obligation. It would be a really tough but interesting topic set to take on. Do I see a 3-part series, Nicki? 😉 Either way, all you ladies have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate the dialogue.
Melinda – I welcome you (or any of you other brilliant thinkers who have particpated in this enlightening thread) to tackle the subject! I may try, myself. I’m feeling inspired. But if someone wants to, as well (or instead!) please don’t hesitate to email something in and we’ll post it!
I *may* take you up on that. It would definitely be a tough one.
I’d like to correct one “fact” that was mentioned in the original post and then again in the comments. I am a client with Holt and am in the process of completing my 4th adoption with them, 2 from China and now 2 from Vietnam. I was allowed to state my preference for a girl in my homestudy for three of the four adoptions (I was not allowed to do so for the 1st adoption in 1996 – but since I was in the China program odds were overwhelming that I would be matched with a girl.) I know that sometime in the later half of last year, Holt changed policy for the Vietnam program and are requiring families who have entered the program since that time to be open to either gender.
Interesting Heather-
We first looked into Holt in late 2005, at that time we were told that we would need to be open to a child of either gender…..that is where I based my information. We ultimately did not choose Holt, so perhaps this was while they were changing their policy????
This was prior to when they had their lisence…
Jena,
When you inquired of Holt in 2005, do you know if you specifically spoke with the Vietnam program staff? While it is true that Holt did not/does not allow gender selection in many of their country programs, they did allow it for Vietnam up until late 2006. When we adopted through them in early 2003, the Vietnam program director said prospective adoptive parents were more or less requesting an equal number of boys and girls. Once that changed and the scale tipped strongly toward girls (which occurred with the re-opening of the program last year), Holt changed its policy regarding gender preference for Vietnam. Holt currently has families who have been waiting over a year now for girls aged 0-24 months, but that should transition in a few months to all waiting families being gender neutral.
-Gina (AP)
No one has posted on this conversation in over a week so maybe no one will see this but I still want to say it. 🙂 I am somewhat against gender selection. I have always said, just as some of you have that if I was pregnant I would not get to choose. However, if I was pregnant I would have a 50 – 50 chance of having a boy or a girl. I have a son now and am currently going with no preference for my second child. If, however, my second is a boy and the climate in the adoption world is the same by the time we are ready for a third I think it is likely we will choose to have a girl. If stating no preference is a guaranteed boy. Not because it would be so bad to have a third boy but because at that point you are still really making a choice. I hope that made some sense. I can’t tell if I am saying it clearly. Anyway, I just really wanted to present my point of you. I also wanted to say that if gender selection were not an option across the board (if no one at any agency could choosing making it a true even shot on both sides) I would still adopt three and would not be upset if I wound up with three boys. Well, maybe a little disappointed but no more than someone who gets pregnant and has that scenario.
If people cannot request gender or a healthy child or a child with only certain health probs or a certain age etc, less people would adopt and less kids would find homes. Instead of making value judgments because of someones belief system, encourage what gets the most kids adopted. Isn’t that the goal?
If we all adopted for the right reasons fertile folks would only adopt. As it stands far less folks who can give birth, choose to adopt. I would love to see fertile folks adopt because they can pick gender or whatever instead of having. Again more kids would find homes.
Are those making the comments adopting only because they are infertile? If so those comments about those “bad” people choosing gender are hypocritical. By your logic God doesn’t want you to have kids by birth, so you are circumventing with adoption ,and that is ridiculous. You want a child. Thats not diff than wanting a daughter vs a son. One person said they would trust God but maybe still would request a daughter( ie not trust God?). The logic doesn’t hold. Go forth, be loving build a life that is as meaningful as possible.The rest is beyond our control filled with unfairness senseless tragedy and filled with awe and wonder and beauty. If you want a daughter find her. Who is to say that God didn’t give you boys so you would look for a girl. I do think that the only point is in how much compassion we can show, not what kind of God there is or is not or how much the infinite universe is micro managed.
There are honorable reasons for having preferences. Some folks request healthy kids and they choose not to get pregnant because they are olderand know the risks of a handicapped child are greater. Or carry a bad genetic trait Or they have one handicapped child and cannot manage a second handicapped child. Or they know they cannot manage a sick child without it destroying their marriage or take so many resources away from other kids that college or braces are out. OR they have several of one gender and would only choose to have ie adopt another if they can control gender. Its interesting no one is talking about Haitian or African babies–plenty of girls there.
It would seem from some of the comments that if the parent is not a theist that they have no business adopting because they are not leaving it in the hands of a Biblical God. What about Buddhists, Hindus? Faiths that do not have a similar concept of a God? Should Muslim parents not adopt kids born Christian if they don’t raise them Christian and vice verso?
What about not stripping a child of the religion of their birth just because they are adopted? We can be inter-religious here – pulling the best form many faiths, honoring them, participating in them, without being condemned by any God who is loving. Ethnic religious communities are one of the main ways adoptive kids have to connect with and feel one with their birth culture and community and language and music. Their link to the adopted culture will be so automatic and we should not take away the small threads that allow them to glimpse and truly understand where they came from.
That does not include recently converted communities to a western faith. The subtle culture is most accurately understood in its original faiths, not just its newer ones.
My brother is internationally inter-racially adopted as is his wife and as are some of my kids. They would have liked a traditional ethnic wedding but her parents wanted a European Christian one. It hurt them greatly but they complied, never even voicing their preferences. She said she knew after a lifetime of bing raised Christian that her parents viewed all other faiths as less legitimate and was too loving herself to stress her parents. They wanted a certain type of wedding to honor their own sense of loss and renewal. They can never have that moment back. Their wedding was not their own.
Don’t feel guilty because you hope for a certain child: healthy, happy girl or boy, musical or artistic, or that you increase your chances for that child. Just make sure that once they are in your midst that you love them, who they are, not what you project them to be, but whatever they are inside. That applies to birth and adopted kids alike. There is no difference in the parenting experience when we love that intimately. The day my daughter tells me she wishes she could know her birth mom will be one of the happiest days from me because it will mean she fees she can share the most intimate secret parts of her pain with me. That sharing is what makes me her mother.
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